Author Topic: Back to transports and gliders...opinions welcome :)  (Read 883 times)

JFalk

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Back to transports and gliders...opinions welcome :)
« on: March 24, 2000, 03:33:00 PM »
I read a post below about changing the mininum alt to drop troops to at least 400 feet and I agree 100%, here is my reasoning...

   Aces High is a game/sim that prides itself of realism, dropping paratroopers at 5 feet is not very realistic.   If you want to drop paratroops at 5 feet go and play Fighter Ace 2.0 where the game is full of arcade style play!  If we are going to drop them at 5-50 feet off the ground we might just as well make them gliders, because thats what they are almost becoming.

Someone a while ago mentioned having gliders in the game.  Most of the people shot the idea down.  I still think the idea has merit, but I was thinking of using gliders to transpot equipment, like the M-16 halftrack to near an enemy field, if we get light tanks in the game maybe we could use it to transport them also.  This way we have transports for troops, gliders for equipment/troops.  All we would have to do is use a heavy bomber to be the tug, have player 1 fly the bomber and player 2 either join player 1 and control the tug while in air, then take over the equipment when it lands.  Player 1 could then drive the vehicle while Player 2 guns.

Offline Kieren

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Back to transports and gliders...opinions welcome :)
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2000, 03:52:00 PM »
JFalk-

You make a good point about the 0 ft alt drops on the paras, and I tend to agree. I do think it should be possible to land and dump them though.

I don't know what I think about the glider idea, other than they would be supremely vulnerable. I think a lot of the dislike of the idea originally revolved around the lack of solid proof that a WWII glider (other than the Me323) could even carry armor. Pongo also made a very good point concerning gliders- "Why require a C47 to tow a glider when 2 C47's are better?" Unless the glider could carry a *lot* more troops, or if it can be documented one could carry armor, it may fall too far into fantasy to satisfy the bulk of players' tastes.

I would add that the glider pilot better be darn good, because 10 seconds' flying time is a long walking distance, and the troops only last 5 minutes...   You won't have to miss the field much to have a failed attempt.

JFalk

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2000, 04:28:00 PM »
I agree that if you want to actually land it and dump/unload the troops why not, lets just not have chutes opening at 10 feet.  

What do you think about expanding the radius of the dropzone by a km or so around the base, just have the troops start making a line for the airfield as soon as they are out.  This way you wouldn't have to land right on top of the field, give you a little extra cushion space.

On the limits of the transports, like I said Im not really sure what could be lifted on all the different ones.  I know jeeps where on some.  I did find one Heavy transport glider that was used by Great Britain called the General Aircraft Hamilcar.  I dont want to get into the realm of fantasy either with heavy tanks being on gliders.

Hmm, hehe what if we have landing craft with troops , I know some landing craft carried vehicles, now that would be fun.  We could recreate some really cool beach invasions.  

Offline RAM

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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2000, 04:28:00 PM »
In fact I find glider's idea a fine one...A glider would be a challenge to fly...and GLiders could carry A LOT of paras on board. Say the glider has 30 troopers on board...thats a BIG ammount, the equivalent to 3 C-47!!!!

I want to ask another idea. Make BIG fields harder to take. Say 3-runway fields require 30 troopers, make 2-runway fields and ask for 20 troopers. and the single runway ,taken by 10 troopers.

And the home fields (F9, F17 and F1) will require 40 troopers to be taken.

IMHO that would make things MUCH better  
Any thoughts?

Offline -duma-

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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2000, 04:38:00 PM »
RAM - An interesting idea, but I can't see it working on the current terrain. I fly goons a lot and know that it's hard enough to get 10 troops in without dying - much more so on an elevated field. Your idea would make it virtually impossible to capture the last fields, because the entire country would be up defending them. (And Joe has a point - it's just no fun taking a goon to get strafed by a spitfire [It always is, frankly], no matter how skilled and tactical your approach.)

I think it's a bit pointless discussing it. Once zero two comes out I'm hoping this will be a thing of the past.

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[This message has been edited by -duma- (edited 03-24-2000).]

Offline RAM

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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2000, 04:50:00 PM »
As in 1.02 new terrain will be available, I hope that this feature can be implemented in next releases.

If we incorporate 30 trooper gliders, then to get a field wont be so impossible... in fact I gave the idea to make gliders useful, and to make bigger fields more difficult to take (realistic,IMHO)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2000, 05:22:00 PM »
Dammo.. we gonna open the 'realism' can of worms on c47's??

How bout how damn easy it is to spot one from 15k? You can't hide a c47 from someone thats LOOKING for one. No way. Best you can hope for is the other guy ain't looking.

I think we should shelve the C47/Glider discussion till such time as the new release is out. Field capture/closure is a big pain in the 'realism' butt right now, and low alt drops are about the only counter we CURRENTLY have against the infinte replane capabilities on a bombed to stone-age field.

As for gliders... why not. I'm game. As a fighter pilot this sounds almost too easy.. two kills for the price of one. (oh; the humanity) Further; the WACO had the glide charateristics of a freakin cinder block. The C47 tug had a monumental job hauling the damn things to release altitudes. From the glider drivers perspective it would seem to be about the most insane (read brave) thing someone could do to get a capture at a contested field. Maybe if it was dark; and the radar was dead, and para's had been dropped in the LZ to secure and mark it..... but by then a single C47 coulda and woulda succesfully captured the field.

Mind yah; I'm not a nay-sayed here... I'm just finding the logistics a litte cumbersome.

Maybe if the gliders were 'system' controlled.. I.E; 4 c47's closed to within 10 miles of the field with their gliders in tow at 10k and released; the gliders would then be flown by the system AI to the field. This way the 'live' c47 tug pilot might have a chance at a capture without the almost certain suicide that he faces now in trying to get within drunk drop range at a contested field.

Hang
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...at home, or abroad.

Offline SC-GreyBeard

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Back to transports and gliders...opinions welcome :)
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2000, 11:44:00 PM »
just a note....

the WACO class gliders could NOT carry anything as hvy as a M16....

1 jeep, and a 75mm field How. was about max loadout for vehicles. or possibly a bren carrier...
if memory serves,,, they carried 24 troops and 2 pilots.

As to minimum heighth for Para drop, (I believe) was 350 ft. With something like 500ft was considered best combat drop altitude.

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[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 03-24-2000).]

Luckyone

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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2000, 12:23:00 AM »
Still, they may have made the difference for the alias side. It would be a great team that could make it work in AH (once ground equipment are around).
The time may come someday.

AO2
Why did they wear helmets?

[This message has been edited by Luckyone (edited 03-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Luckyone (edited 03-25-2000).]

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2000, 12:36:00 AM »
The  General Aircraft Hamilcar glider could carry a light tank wieghing 7900kg, and had internal hold dimensions of 8.29m x 2.44m wide and 2.03m high.
410 were delivered before D-Day. 70 were used on D-day, 250 at Arnhem and during the Rhine crossing.
A powered version was tested but I have no idea if it was produced.
Make of that what you will, I have no idea wether that would be enough to carry a half track etc. It was used to carry a light tank called the Tetrach, however.
I am all for the idea of gliders. I might even have a go flying one myself.  


[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 03-25-2000).]

Rojo

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Back to transports and gliders...opinions welcome :)
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2000, 01:23:00 AM »
Well, gliders could have some utility if:

1) They carried more troops than a C-47;

2) They could carry a useful alternate cargo, i.e. a Jeep w/mg, a howi, etc;

3) and this is the big one, they could land someplace the C-47 couldn't.  Right now, it's no problem to set a C-47 down anywhere, regardless of whether you have a runway or not.  Gliders were used by the allies because they could set down on very short pieces of real estate.  They also didn't require specially trained troops, like paratroopers; any grunt could ride in one.  In fact, at the time of D-day, Allied glider-borne troops didn't get any kind of extra pay like their paratrooper brethern.  If the terrain modeling were such in AH that landing a C-47 off-field offered significant risk to your virtual life, while gliders didn't, people might be inclined to use them more.

Anyone know if a C-47 could pull more than one Waco at a time? Just curious.  Another reason gliders were used was the limited training required to prepare a glider pilot, compared to a fully trained powered a/c pilot.  There's no way to model this in the game, however.  We could give glider troops longer range (once disembarked), too.  That would mean you could land at a greater distance from the objective, and the glider troops would then make for the target on foot.

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Offline RAM

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Back to transports and gliders...opinions welcome :)
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2000, 06:06:00 AM »
GLiders also were useful because the troops delivered could be well equiped (They put feet on land with SMGs, Rifles and moderate heavy equipment such as light MGs, mortars,even with bazookas and so). ^Paratroopers never were launched with anything heavier than a submachinegun, and that with luck. All heavy equipment was launched apart and ran the risk of being completely lost (troopers had to find them after landing and, usually, landings were VERY hot)

So if we make glider troopers worth 1.5 paratrooper, that will be useful too

Tetrarch light tank was a british desing,not very succesfull,but weighted some 8 tons, so the glider that could deliver it ALSO could deliver a halftrack, for sure. The tank itself , if I remember correct, was used on arnhem...but Im not sure.
So gliders in the game could be allowed to take halftracks on board and deliver them.

Hangtime...hehehe yep, C-47 or Tante-jus   with gliders attached will be fat slow targets worth for 2! but hehe if you miss one, you can start to shiver. If spawn points are to be closed, Gliders are a REAL threat for any field defended my land forces.That can make them useful in the game.

Of course, IMHO


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-25-2000).]

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2000, 08:19:00 AM »
Hi all

As for towing the Gliders, I know that the RAF did use Short Sterlings (among other planes) and I might be wrong, but I think they did use some modified Lancasters towards the end of the war.  So, when we get the Lancaster, could that be an option as a tug?

'Nexx'
NEXX