What do the unions think about...

[miko2d]

Industrial robots?

 We are way behind Japain in that respect. More then half of the industrial robots in the world are used there.

 Would replacing the workers in menial jobs with dumb industrial robots be any less controversial from the Unions point of view then moving production abroad or importing the cheaper foreign-made products?

 Anyone has an idea why don't we use more robots now?

 I suspect that the move of production to Mexico may be a step in that direction - once the plants there become obsolete in a few years and environment standards tighten, the production can be moved back to US to the new plants with much fewer workers.

 miko

[Eagler]

Robots of the World Unite!



My father is an independent blasting and coating consultant for ship builders/owners worldwide. In Japan the majority of sandblasting and application of various coatings are done robotically. He has stated in the past that their yards are the most efficient shipyards he has dealt with.

[Elfenwolf]

The responsibility of Unions is to protect its workers jobs. A case in point is the Typesetters Union in San Francisco. The Examiner and Chronicle wanted to upgrade from the old fashioned line-o-type machines, which were ancient technology in the late 70s, to the more-modern IBM Selectrics. The problem the Unions had with upgrading the typesetting was the potential loss of jobs.

Management and Labor went back and forth, and may have even had a strike over this issue (sorry, faulty memory. However, they did have a strike around this time.) Eventually Hurst Publishing Corp. was able to phase in newer typesetting technology, and the Union was made happy because workers were retrained or shifted to other duties or they retired.

Modernization costs jobs so most Unions today will lobby for retraining programs for their membership. Unions form a bargaining unit, negotiate a contract with management and work to fulfill that contract. The Courts have clamped down on the "wildcat strike" option so many unions employeed, and Unions realize as much as Management does that strikes are counterproductive.

A union contract will spell out exactly what is expected of its membership. Anything that takes a job away from a Union "brother" is forbidden, and I was chastised once by a shop steward for moving several boxes (That's a warehouseman's job.)
Basically the Union will provide a competent, well trained labor force for Management in exchange for wages, benefits, parking spaces, types of soda pop in the machines, number of toilets, whatever- the Contract is hammered out between the Labor team and the Management team, and job guarantees are ALWAYS an issue.

Unions will resist any modernization that will cost its bargaining unit membership and will negotiate for retraining programs or shifts of bargaining units. That's what they are paid for by the membership to do.

[Midnight]

Unfortunately, in some circumstances, unions are needed for workers to get a fair deal.

IMO - Also, and more unfortunately, unions are causing the downfall of a lot of companies. This is due to the larger, less effcient and in some cases less skilled (Less skilled workers can slide by because they don't have to do anything but work with the other guys that know what they are doing) workforce.

I had an experience like yours, Elfenwolf, at a once great Military contractor (maker of the 'Patriot' Missle system). Because of the union, a job that I could have finished myself in 15 minutes took over 3 hours to complete.

The Problem: A limit switch (electrical switch activated by a mechanical action of a machine) was not working properly.

The Troubleshooting Process:
T+0: I connected my PC to the PLC and found that a limit switch was not making contact when a conveyor arm went by.

I take out my multi-tool with screw-driver and am about to adjust the switch. A shop steward yells at me and asks what I am doing. I tell him the problem, at which point he proceeds to lecture me that this is a union shop and a union electrician will have to come over and work on things for me.

I tell him I am sorry and that I was unaware of the rules. He says it is ok and goes off to find me an electrician.

T+15: Electrican shows up and asks what the problem is. I explain what I think it is. He tells me to wait while he goes to get his tools.

Waiting for the union electrician to go get his tools so he could fix the limit switch (Of course he could have brought them when he came to go look at the machine, just in case he had to fix something. But he thought it would be better to walk all the way back to the shop to get them)

T+40: Electrician determines the limit switch is working properly and that the switch body must have moved on the bracket. To correct this, he adjusts the switch arm. The machine cycles properly and the Electrician leaves for coffee break.

T+50: The machine stops working again.

T+60: Electrician returns and determines the screws that hold the switch body in place were loose and this allowed the switch to move on the mounting bracket.

I ask him to put the switch back in position and tighten the screws. He tells me it is not his job, and the machinist will have to come do it.

T+1:15: Machinist shows up and looks at the bracket. Decides he has to go back to the shop and get his tools (Another one that doesn't bring his tools to a trouble call. Did he think we called him for no reason?)

T+1:25: Machinist returns with his tools. Tightens screws on bracket and then notices that the bracket is not totally square on the machine frame. Further investigation shows that the bracket is bent slightly outward.

I ask him to bend the bracket back to square. He tells me it is not his job, and the millwright will have to come do it.

T+1:40: Lunch time: Delay 1 hour

T+2:50: Millwright looks at machine and sees where the bracket is bent. After going back to the shop and determining that he has no spare brackets, he decides to bend the original bracket back into place.

T+3:15: Machine will not operate properly because the adjustment made on the limit switch arm earlier has now made the switch operate too soon, because it is now too far forward now that the bracket has been bent back into the proper position.

I ask him to adjust the limit switch arm. He tells me it is not his job, and the electrician will have to come do it.

T+3:35: Electrian returns to look at the limit switch. (This time he brought his screw-driver) The electrican adjusts the limit switch arm back to its original position. We test run the machine and it all works again.

T+3:50: I pack up and leave, two hours late for another appointment I had promised to make.

To make matters worse through this entire process, I had to explain to each worker what I thought the problem was and what steps were already taken to determine that. It also seemed that none of them wanted to believe my story and had to have me run several tests so they could see what was happening before they did anything to make an adjustment.

I think it is for situations such as the one above that unions get a bad name. I have seen too many where there is one or two hard workers in a group and the rest just go along for the ride, not really doing much or having much of their own skill.

Unions like that need to go.

[Elfenwolf]

Heya Midnight,
LOL great story, and the fact it is true makes it all the better.  But looking at it from the persprctive of the shop steward, if I saw you weilding a non-issue multi-tool I would beg you to cease all activities concerning said electrical switch, based upon as much for your safety as for preserving the job of some dip=shit electrician who has suffered one too many blasts of 220 to the point he forgets to even bring his Multi-Meter to the show, but so what?

Ineptitude is not limited to the union sector. Ineptitude is universal throughout business, and the only constant is that the bigger the organization the bigger the ineptitude...with Government being the biggest and, thus, the most inept, BTW.

I know of several scenarios even sadder than the one you related, and in each instance the Union (remember though, therte's as many unions as there are flavors of Snapple) was the villan.

Now taking the argument that your job as an electrician, machinist or millwright is protected BY CONTRACT, where is the harm in insuring that the problem is addressed by those trained -and PAID- to respond to the problem? And please, don't insinuate that non union workers are more productive than union workers unless you have documentation  attesting to that fact.

For argument's sake let's suppose that EVERY Union worker is a lazy, blood-sucking leach on American society. Let's suppose that every Union is extorting the management of whichever industry they are extorting at the moment, and thay are forcing them to hire all the lazy, greedy Union workers who will sit on their tulips and do absolutely NOTHING on their way to a generous 20 year retirement at 90% of their inflated pay.

What do I say to THAT?? HALLUELAH!!! Damn, I wish I had the negotiating team that got the Union THAT deal, because if I am working for somebody here in America today Organized Labor will do more to protect my rights as a worker than the "good graces" of some non-union corporate entity like Enron will do for me, and that's the bottom line after all.

[gavor]

I really, really hate unions but i cant be bothered writing a proper argument or tirade about it. They're like little bands of militia with a different set of laws to the rest of the country.

[capt. apathy]

Some of the reasons that you are only allowed to do jobs that fall under your craft scope and you don't do the other crafts job.

1. Professional courtesy: if you do work that falls under another’s jurisdiction then the lines behind who does what becomes blurred and soon different crafts are forced to try to undercut each others wages to get the work.  If you are union you are united you don't compete with each other; you compete with non-union workers and other companies.

2. Quality: many people who think they can do a task well are actually just so clueless as to whats involved that they have no idea as to the actual level of their incompetence.

3. Liability: if the product fails and it becomes known that the task was done by someone who was not assigned to it or has not been qualification tested, there is a huge liability issue.

There are other reasons but I’m getting tired and don't feel like getting much farther into it.  Some times the rules are a pain and seem very stupid but they are there for a reason.

[gavor]

Dumb, thats why people stay dumb and dont become multi skilled. I'm creating a utopia where there are no unions or dumb people. In fact, i'm not sure i'm allowed there myself.

[Midnight]

My story and my feelings in no way imply that non-union workers are any better by default. There are just as many unskilled workers who are not union.

I am indicating that in a union, you are protected from showing your true lack of skill by the experienced hard workers that are in your group. That, coupled with the labor laws within the union make the un-skilled worker very difficult to fire or get rid of.

-----
Capt. Apathy, you must be in a union, or are pro-union.

At the time of this incident, I had over 4 years experience with automated machinery, industrial electronics and computers and machine tool wiring.

The simple and small problem of the limit switch in NO WAY warranted that 3 different workers, from 3 different trades come to work on it. The idea that a person is only able to work in one very small area of tasks is totally ridiculous.

If I were allowed to work on the switch myself, I could have solved the problem and been done a lot faster than 4 hours.

Why is it that a plumber can put up pipes that are soldered together, but a pipe-fitter is needed if the pipes have threaded ends? WTF is up with that? A pipe is a pipe until you start getting into specialty applications.

-----

Here's another union story...

A pipe-fitting company used to do all of our process gas piping in the plant I worked at. They had very specialized knowledge and tools in order to do the work they did. (Sonic welding, double lined stainless piping)

In any case, the plant across the way (Same company) had a union shop (Our plant did not).

They needed to install the same type of piping for a new machine that was going in. Common sense was to have the experts go over there and install the piping.

The union threw a fit and got their way, the experts were not allowed into the building to work on anything.

A job that the experts would have finished in about 5 weeks was still barely started in 8 weeks. The union people had no specialized skills and experience with making the sonic welds, and many pipe joins had to be re-done due to stress failures in pressure testing.

After 14 weeks and way over budget, the project was completed. When I left the company, there were still problems with failed valves, incorrect flow volumes of critical gasses, etc.

------------

[Midnight]

Also, I want to make it clear that I am not against unions.

In some places they are very much needed to keep the workers safe and paid well for the jobs they are doing.

It is when they start thinking that THEY own everything around the job-site and thet THEY are the top priority and everyone else can wait for them.

When they are like that, it's like they are spoiled little brats. Don't dare to tell them they did something wrong, it's all the company's fault. Don't dare to ask them to work a few extra minutes into break time, even if the job at hand is critical.

Some unions are like gold-digging women. If you pay them what they want, give them all the benefits they want and let them come and go as they please, they just might put out for you. Then, they sucker you into a deal and as soon as they think they have the right position, they stop putting out and walk off with half your money (Budget for the project)

[Wotan]

Unions made sense when there was an "Evil Boss Man" exploiting dependent workers.

Well know companies need to show a profit to satisfy investors (stock holders).

The company I last worked for installed automated systems.

We worked at a huge plant that made gypsum board (drywall)

The plant was 300 yards long and it had manable stations that we were replacing so instead of 10 guys per shift to run this part of the plant it would take 2. 3 shifts 30 guys to 6 guys. We made all kind of other upgrades to that plant to eliminate even more excess labor.

This plant was bought out by a larger coporation and prior to these upgrades it was "profitable". However these upgrades ensured its future at a higher profit level and made it more attractive to investors.

Investors aren't just 4 rich guys they are everyday people. The money generated from these types of investments is far greater then simply keeping the plant open to ensure these 30 folks their jobs.

The unions do protect the narrow interests of thier members but at the expense of the nation at a whole.

Companies are forced to move plants oversees. Ofcourse they dont lower the price of the product but it increases profitability and attracts greater investment.

Also the union guys at that drywall plant would steael our tools or hide them and just intefere costing the company money. There interests only extended to the end of their nose.

Anyway the point is most of these large companies are publicly held and the folks who are chosen to run them have to before anything else take that into consideration. Even if that means dismantling and selling off the factory piece by piece to ensure future investment.

[gavor]

A brief thought. Safety should be the concern of the company and this should be a strictly enforced law, not an excuse for the union to gather more members(and membership fees).

I'd say the health of the company itself should also be protected. I agree that the workers are important but in this age aren't companies mature enough to do that themselves. If the unions had their way they'd have all companies over a barrel, banging them as hard as possible. How does this help people in the long run? If the company collapses from the heavy union demands or strikes, what happens to all the workers?

On another note, I just found out our leftist Labour party(pro-union) will expel any sitting member who votes against the party line when passing a bill. The right standing party(who i always vote for) allow members to vote with their concience(sp?). I'm really beginning to hate leftist/socialist groups. Oh no! I'm turning into Grunherz!

[Elfenwolf]

Wotan, "Evil Boss Man?" IBM just got sued in San Francisco for laying off higher paid employees and transfering lower paid ones out to S.F. Enron just ripped off ALL of its workers.
Companies relocate to the biggest scam of all, though- the Free Trade Zones established by the NAFTA accord. Pay workers 50 cents an hour, no ecological concerns, no OSHA concerns, no tarriffs on importing their Made in Mexico goods- toejam, "Evil Boss Man" is alive and well, and living in a Free Trade Zone South of the Rio Grande.

Job safety?? Job safety is a big Union issue, but a bigger issue is job hazards. Black lung disease, chained emergency exits in a chicken processing plant during a fatal fire, biohazard handling- Unfortunately Unions are too busy with the hazards of a workplace to worry about rather a handrail is properly installed on a stairway. That's the OSHA people's job.

About "leftists"- Unions are bipartisan. If they support a canditate it is based upon his voting record on labor issues and nothing else. The fact that they support more Democrats than Republicans is due to the fact that Republicans are anti-Union to a large extent. However, the average Union member is approaching 50 and many are retired military working in civilian jobs on a military base. These guys are NOT leftists.

My support of Unions is based on the erosion of the middle class here in America. Sure, you can always find some slob willing to do the job cheaper because he has an old lady on welfare and he believes the American Dream is coming home to his rented apartment on Friday nights with a 12 pack of beer and an eighth ounce of green bud, but I believe we can all do so much better. I like my neighborhood and I like the fact Union membership makes it possible for so many to enjoy the REAL American dream, which is home ownership, a good education for our kids and job security.

[gavor]

I believe unions ARE lefist, more power to the workers, down with the upper/middle class! Sound familiar? Maybe things are different here in Australia but i doubt it. Unions are a part of the Labor party, lots of parliament members are ex-union bosses.

I'd say the American dream thingy is a bit dated isnt it? Once again though, im not American so I dont understand the great American dream thingy. I'd say its better to encourage people to make more of themselves than just buy a house, have kids send them to school. I don't wanna offend anyone so i'm going to shut up about this one.

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by gavor
I believe unions ARE lefist, more power to the workers, down with the upper/middle class! Sound familiar? Maybe things are different here in Australia but i doubt it. Unions are a part of the Labor party, lots of parliament members are ex-union bosses.

I'd say the American dream thingy is a bit dated isnt it? Once again though, im not American so I dont understand the great American dream thingy. I'd say its better to encourage people to make more of themselves than just buy a house, have kids send them to school. I don't wanna offend anyone so i'm going to shut up about this one.

Down with the MIDDLE CLASS?? Gavor, the Unions ARE the middle class!! Well, at least in America, anyway. I'm sorry to note that only the bicycle messengers and fast food workers are organized in Australia. And knowing that your country is run by former fast food union thugs makes me glad you don't have atomic weapons.

Gavor, I have seen your homeland- I watched every episode of "Survivor 2- The Outback"- so I understand you are prone to flash floods and fire storms. Of COURSE you have so much more to do with your life in Australia than I do here in America. Usually you have to run for it! If it's not the most deadly of snakes in the world, of which something like the top 20 are in Australia, it's having your two cities overrun by out of control bands of jackrabbits and kangaroos. At least we in America managed to control our native animal problem, the Buffalo, Wolf and Grizzly Bear. Hey, you dudes are whimpin out to JACKRABBITS!! If Australians were all that tough there wouldn't be a kangaroo left alive.

Of COURSE you can't understand the Great American Dream thingie. You aren't American, bud. My American Dream is to buy a home, raise a family and have a decent career. You're Australian- hell, you can't even get a drink at the local watering hole without fear of getting eaten by a Croc. Your dream is much more primal than mine- I hope to buy a new Taurus next year, you hope a dingo doesn't drag off one of your kids- but if I were in your situation, facing poisonous snakes, crocodiles, hungry dingos and angry rabbits and kangaroos I'd think the American Dream was frivilous too.