Once again, the Italians come to mind. My point, however, was simply that by 1941 there was no excuse for Germans not to know that Germany had started a war of conquest (more below). I dont think Ive ever said that all German citizens were war criminals or butchers guilty of crimes against humanity. Certainly many Germans were. Certainly the active support for Hitler exhibited by the great mass of them fostered the climate that allowed those crimes to be perpetrated.
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In another world, I suppose, it would be possible to have an educated population of tens of millions of otherwise-civilized people who were so monstrously ignorant that they truly believed this chain of events. Imagine how miraculous they must have found it when the Wehrmacht, having just been attacked by the Polish hordes, was able to reverse things so promptly and overrun Poland in six weeks. Please. You are, by the way, the first person who has ever suggested this scenario to me, and so you get extra points for originality.
Make up your mind. Would it matter to you or not if the Germans honestly thought that they were fighting a just war, or a defensive war?
Let me ask you exactly what you are questioning in what I said.
1) That the official German version was that Polish troops had attacked a German radio station. And in the weeks prior to that attack numerous reports on how the German minority in Poland was mistreated had been broadcasted. Heck, the Germans even presented 10 or so dead poles wearing full Polish uniforms. (The Poles were concentration camp inmates)
2) That France and England declared war on Germany, not the other way around.
3) That the German invasions of Norway and Denmark were counteractions to the British and French plans to invade Norway and Sweden.
What do you oppose in 1-3 above? What is not true? And you really surprise me when you say that Im the first person who ever suggested this scenario to you. I thought that points 1-3 above was common knowledge.
My point exactly. If they wanted to overlook some of the central points of Naziism, they did it easily. Im sure your analogy of abolishment of welfare v. starting WWII and eradicating populations based upon folklore racial theories was not serious.
Well start a new thread someday about whether the Versailles treaty was as grossly unfair to the poor Germans as they would have everyone think. For purposes of our present discussion it is enough that many countries have been subject to one-sided peace treaties and loss of territory, but none of them responded the way Nazi Germany did.
You must be an A.J.P. Taylor afficionado. Again, Ill give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you do not mean that it was up to the rest of the world to take care of German domestic tranquility after WWI - and that its our fault that they went over the edge.
Well, Im gonna stick my neck out here, and say that I cant think of any nation (in modern times) that got stuck with such a toejamty peace deal as Germany at Versailles. The only reason I brought Versailles up though, was to try and explain how it came to be that the Nazis took over Germany in the first place.
And allow me do demonstrate my ignorance here, who was/is A.J.P. Taylor, and what does he have to say with what I wrote?
The reason Germany went over the edge in the late 20:s/early 30:s WAS the fault of the Versailles treaty. If you remove all possible economic growth from a nation while you humiliate them at the same time you will get stuck with some counterreaction. Im not saying that this is the US fault. Im simply pointing out that in such a situation the two extreme absolutes (communism and extreme nationalism) will grow. Germany or (the Germans) in the early 30:s longed for 3 things. Stability, pride and decent living standards. Stability because the economic chaos lead to something that can only be described as a low intensity civil war between communists and nationalists. Pride because they did feel humiliated, filled with shame and deprived of their worth. Decent living standards, because the, like everyone else wanted a decent, rich life.
Along comes Hitler. He says that the Germans are the choosen ones. They have no reason to feel ashamed or humiliated. They cant do anything wrong... Heck, they are the master race nothing less. In fact, the only reason why Germany is in such a bad state is because of the jews. He gets into power, and within four years he has changed Germany from being a backwards piss poor shadow of a nation, to the most powerful, advanced, proud nation in Europe. The citizens has transformed from poor, hungry bleak shadows to proud strong healthy, rich citizens. No matter how you twist or turn the facts or statistics, you will find that the German progress between 1934 and 1939..or even 1941 was astounding.
All this is something classical. Take a person with a low self esteem. Tell him he is worth something, give him someone to blame his misfortunes on, show him trust. Or take a group of people and present them with a perceived threat. The person will be fiercely loyal to you, the group of people will tend to put their differences aside and work as a team.
They werent even remotely comparable. Not even close.
Did I say they were comparable?
First Im stupid and wrong, now Im hysterical. What I want to know is, do I get a new body to go along with my new personality? If so, please order thicker hair.
The war against the Nazis was the very essence of good guy v. bad guy John Waynism. I truly hope our notion that Naziism must be destroyed is not passe in the modern world.
Actually I wasnt aware that it was a new personality for you. My mistake. Im simply trying to point out the fact that the world is not black and white. No matter how hard you try to paint it that way. Im also trying to point out that hindsight is 20/20, and when you judge the German population, you judge them on facts and events that they at the time had no knowledge about. If you cant understand why that is wrong, then I really dont know what to say.
Hortlund, my man, buy a copy of Daniel Goldhagens Hitlers Willing Executioners. He covers this in some detail. Or you could start with Shirers books. There are lots of others. (Looks down, brushes some rubbish off his stomach.) Would you also order a new gut for me, on that new body? Id like a little one, for a change.
The way I see it we can go two ways here. Either I get a copy of those books at the library and read them, or you can tell me what conclusions they reach and how. That way we wont have to stop this discussion for two weeks while I read their books. What do you say?
