Author Topic: What about this plane in AH's future?  (Read 892 times)

Offline K West

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2002, 12:41:40 PM »
"P-39 was good plane. Amis just werent good enough pilots."

 stinky bait.

 
 Regardless, the USAAF pilots who flew her in Africa and Italy had no problems what so ever versus the Axis aircraft. The P-39 was a very much a lethal quarry at less than 15k which is the same as it was on the Eastern front when used by the Soviets..

  The real problem for the P-39 was in the Pac theatre where the Zeke outclassed the P-39 in just about every category (As a fighter). The Zeke kicked any Allied pilots who had to dogfight if they could not dive or extend away from it.  The Spitfires and Hurricanes were as badly mauled by the Zero as were the P-39 and P-40's.

  IMO the Zeke would have outclassed and kicked bellybutton on the 1930-1941 Luftwaffe and Italian aircraft too had they been it's opponants also.
 
  Westy

Offline illo

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2002, 01:19:56 PM »
How can slower plane really kick ass? I think it's more about tactics. Zero pilots that time had superior training.

Offline K West

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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2002, 01:28:13 PM »
 The USAAF tactics in 1942 as used in Borneo/New Guinea (SW pac area)  did indeed suck.  Sucked bad.  But so did the IJAAF as they practiced a kind of one-on-one samurai type fighting. They may have arrived to the fight as a group but that's about as far it went  regarding squad  tactics  with them.  The IJAAF pilots most often did not even have radios in thier aircraft to save weight. Still, it wasn't just the IJAAF pilots, such as Sakai, who expressed nothing but comtempt for the P-39. Even the USAAF P-39 pilots wrote that they could not out run, outclimb, out turn nor out dive the Zeke.  The P-40 could outdive it, or out zoom climb it if they caught it unawares and those were the P-40's saving graces.


 Some similar thoughts on this by Baugher;

" The Airacobras operating in the Southwest Pacific were sometimes called upon to serve as interceptors, a role for which they were totally unsuited. They proved to be no match for the Japanese Zero in air-to-air combat. In fact, because of difficulties with the oxygen supply, the Airacobra was not even able to reach the Mitsubishi G4M (code name *Betty*) bombers raiding from altitudes above 25,000 feet. In the laconic words of the official AAF history: "The Airacobra, even in a good state of repair, was unable to meet the Japanese fighters on equal terms." Experienced Japanese pilots such as Saburo Sakai regarded the Airacobra as a relatively easy "kill". The P-39s were not as manauverable as the lighter and more nimble Japanese fighters, and enemy fighters could often avoid combat with the P-39s by outclimbing them"

And from Widewings web site:

..."Welch finally received orders to return to the Pacific. George reported to the 36th Fighter Squadron of the 8th Fighter Group in New Guinea. The good news was that this squadron had been seeing combat. The bad news was that is was flying the hopeless Bell P-39 Airacobra. Welch found himself flying mostly ground support missions, this being largely due to the P-39’s poor combat performance and its limited range. Certainly, the 37mm cannon was useful against ground targets, but the Bell was at a serious disadvantage when facing Japanese fighters. This was largely the fault of it being fitted with an Allison engine that lacked a two speed, two stage supercharger. This meant that performance dropped off quickly above 12,000 ft. At the altitudes necessary to engage the Japanese bombers and fighters, the P-39 was an absolute dog. Welch did not view the lack of performance at altitude as the primary sin of the P-39. What truly turned Welch against the Airacobra was its limited combat radius. With the majority of air to air engagements being fought beyond the reach of the Bell, opportunities to shoot down more Japanese were nearly nonexistant. Naturally Welch noted that there were squadrons on his base that were flying the P-38G Lightning. Now, here was a fighter! Fast, long ranging and equally important, its twin Allison engines were turbosupercharged. This allowed the P-38 to climb higher and faster than the P-39. It was everything Welch wanted and the performance of the P-38 was reflected in the tally of Japanese aircraft being shot down. George wanted the Lightning, he wanted it badly and cornered his group commander and inquired as to when 36th could expect to get the P-38. The answer was: “When we run out of P-39s.” That was all Welch and the pilots of 36th needed to hear. Virtually any problem encountered in flight (real or imaginary) resulted in a bailout from that day forward. The operational loss rate climbed dramatically. Welch found himself in hot water with the Group commander, who pointed out that George had been very successful in the P-39."

 Remember, maximum level air speed is not the same as combat cruising speed.  WWII Pilots did not run at military throttle the whole flight like we do in AH and other sims/games. So quite often comparing maximum level flight speeds is pointless.

  Westy
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 01:58:12 PM by K West »

Offline Sikboy

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2002, 02:08:24 PM »
Westy,

I think that Illo was refering to the assertion that the Zeke would kick bellybutton vs. ETO planes.  
perhaps when we have more planes modeled, we can use the CT to find out lol

-Sikboy
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 02:11:19 PM by Sikboy »
You: Blah Blah Blah
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Offline K West

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2002, 02:22:52 PM »
My 'bad' then.   Sorry

  Westy

Offline HoHun

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2002, 04:00:08 PM »
Hi Westy,

>Remember, maximum level air speed is not the same as combat cruising speed.  WWII Pilots did not run at military throttle the whole flight like we do in AH and other sims/games.

Actually, the P-40 and P-39/P-400 pilots in the Pacific did just that routinely.

And the British Air Ministry even issued written orders to employ military power whenever flying in airspace were an encounter with enemy aircraft was possible.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline illo

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2002, 04:53:27 PM »
They didn't like Brewstrer Buffalo either. :)

What was reason behind that? In finland Brewsters were extremely succesful. Even when flown gainst yak-9s and La-5FNs. with K/D still over 30:1.

Offline hazed-

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2002, 08:10:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by illo
How can slower plane really kick ass? I think it's more about tactics. Zero pilots that time had superior training.  



exactly illo, glad someone uses their brain. the zero would not have stood a chance against the 109 if it was used with its strenghs in mind. why stay and turn fight when you can BnZ all day with cannons vs a papercrate :)

as for 1940-41 you are talking the year the 190 arrived!(1941) this was far superior to the zero.

the zero was a great fighter when fought on its terms.If you switched tactics it was wholely lacking in all the wrong places.
sure you could avoid attacks with the turn but for how long?
and with paper like durability who would want to even try?


btw im talking 1 on 1 combat not what was the case in the pacific: ie hundreds of planes fighting.
think about it if the zeros turning capability was the ultimate weapon then we would have stayed in bi-planes!
zeros are terrible in high speed manouvers, they were slow and poorly armoured.

perfect TARGET for a faster cannon armed good diving and climbing machine.mmmmmm now where can i find one of those in 1938-1941??? :D

« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 08:15:41 AM by hazed- »

Offline K West

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2002, 08:54:21 AM »
Give me a break

 The 109E and the A6M2 were close enough in max speed to be literally inconsqeuenctial. The 109E was on barely par with the SpitV but superior to the Hurricane and Kittyhawk. Which (surprise! surprise!) the Zeke was too - well, except it was superior to the Spit V.  
 The A6M2 and A6M3 were the simply finest fighters in action in the war for the years 1941 and wel into 1942. Until the P-38, F6F and the F4U arrived to combat it in the Pacific theatre..
 IMO the A6M would have had the same success it did were it used in combat, in 1941 and 1942, against any of the ETO powers airforces.  It wasn't until the 109G which had a remarkedly faster top speed with which the Zeke truly could have B&Z'd but it did not come in service till late 1942 and into 1943. Samwe with the 190A1/A2 and it was not until the 190A3 that the 190 could have dictated the terms of combat with the Zeke....and only at low and med alts.

 Even then the Zeke had far better range and armament than any of  RAF and LW aricraft and it wasn't until the LW had more punch added to counter bombers in 43 and 1944 that the armament of the LW aircraft matched the what the Zeke had had for years.
 
 Hohun, I recall that most USAAF pilots on a hot intercept did that. However not on CAP or patrol however.  Most accounts of the Zeke vs p-39's, 40's, Spits and Hurries in 1941 and 42 (from both sides) show the Zeke to outperform all of them and across the board. The Allied pilot might live if he dove away. Nothing else.   Not untill the hit&run, Thach weave and more-on-less (what we call "gang banging" in the arena) tactics were employed by ever growing Allied aircraft numbers did things swing towards the Allies. That and the irreplaceable losses at Coral Sea and Midway.  Fortunately the P-38, F6F and F4U arrived and using those planes the Allies put the final nail in the coffin for the Zeke - so to speak.

   Westy
« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 09:36:24 AM by K West »

Offline Oldman731

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2002, 09:35:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by K West
The A6M2 and A6M3 were the simply finest fighters in action in the war for the years 1941 and wel into 1942


Agreed.

- Oldman

Offline J_A_B

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2002, 01:51:33 PM »
Actually the Bf-109E and A6M2 had almost identical weapons--2 light machine guns and 2 low ROF 20mm cannons without all that much ammo.  

Offering an opposing view.....

I don't think the Zero was all that great.  The 109E might not have been a whole lot faster in level flight, but it could undoubtedly out-dive the Zeke which means it could escape at will.  Also, keep in mind that the 109 had fairly good performance over 20K, which the Zero did not.  Over 20K the 109E would eat the Zeke for lunch; under 20K it'd be a close matchup.   The Zero's main advantage over the 109 would be range.  The 109F was far superior to the Zero.  It was faster, better climb, better dive, better acceleration.

I will not argue with the fact that the Zero was the best carrier-based fighter in 1940-1941, but compared to land-based aircraft it wasn't anything special.  The ONLY reason the Zeke enjoyed the successes it did was its opponents initially used horrible tactics.  Even the F4F's and P-40's were a match for the Zero once the Americans began to employ the right tactics.

Personally I feel the Zero is among the more over-rated planes of WW2.

J_A_B

Offline K West

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2002, 08:41:09 AM »
While diving away from a fight will work true but that also takes the diving pilot out of the action. So if the Zeke is escorting bombers on an attack or CAPping a base then the Zeke wins still.
Better tactics and better planes, more so, finally won the day for the Allies. If the Allies had not gotten better aircraft then the Japanese pilots would have countered with better tactics too sooner or later. And thier tactics did improve. They added radios and began adopting better flight/squad tactics also. But by then it was too late as Allied numbers and better Allied aircraft (along with better trained pilots by 43) never let them recover from thier losses at Coral sea, Midway and the attrition in the Solomons. Also, the Japanese training method was not conducive to "mass  producing" good pilots like the Allies could.
 Irreplaceable losses, antiquated training methods and the lack of quick solid aircraft development (no small part due due to really bad interservice rivarly and industrial politics) to maintain technical superiority spelled doom.
 If the Allied (U.S. mainly, early on) air forces had been forced to use the P-39, P-40 and F4F as thier maintstays into and for 1943 then imo the war in the Pacific would have gone on much longer. Because the Zeke and the Oscar would have continued to dominate them. Tactics would have begot counter tactics. People learn and the adapt no matter what side they flew for.

All IMO of course.  And it's been a good exchange on this subject :)

   Westy

Offline Smut

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What about this plane in AH's future?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2002, 09:35:34 AM »
I'm with Westy on this one. If the Luftwaffe had Zero's for BoB, the brits would have lost, IMHO.

-Smut

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2002, 09:39:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Smut
I'm with Westy on this one. If the Luftwaffe had Zero's for BoB, the brits would have lost, IMHO.

-Smut


That's what Sakai said too (although the interview I read said not to attribute any quotes to Sakai, since there the interviewer had not taken notes and was going on memory) But he maintained that this was the case because of superior range. Interesting Idea. If the A6m3 is a secret plane in the set we can take this to the CT and find out :)

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.