Author Topic: Dresden  (Read 2969 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Dresden
« on: March 05, 2002, 03:12:10 AM »
I thought it would be better to continue the discussion in here...

Lets take a look at the overall situation in Europe in early February 1945. Does it look good or bad for the Germans? Any signs of any potential counterattack throwing the allies back into the sea, or the Russians back into Russia? Any signs of increased German production, any signs of stubborn resistance in the west, or any great defensive lines in the east? Not really huh.

Well lets take a look at the Luftwaffe then. Can they take to the air in vast numbers and perhaps stop or disrupt any allied air missions? Any signs of any new fighter units going active? Do they even have fuel enough to sortie more than maybe 20 fighters at the same time? Not really.

Well then, lets take a look at Dresden. Prewar population of roughly 620.000. With all the refugees from the east its population is around 1.000.000 in early Feb 1945. Most of these refugees are simply passing through on their way west. Sleeping outside in freezing weather, carrying with them all their remaining belongings. Any German units in the area? Nope, as good as every available German soldier is at the front. Dresden is however protected by antiaircraft defenses in the form of antiaircraft guns and searchlights.

How about production then? Any industries in the area? Well..yes. Dresden has at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that are legitimate military targets, and they are reported to be employing 50,000 workers. Among these are some dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the Zeiss Ikon A.G., these are the guys who make the excellent zeiss optics for the German Tiger tanks, some other factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A.G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler).

Anyway, where is that place located? Situated 71 miles E.S.E. from Leipzig and 111 miles S. of Berlin. Two major transport routs intersects in the city. The north-south axis between Germany and Czechoslovakia runs through the valley and gorge of the Elbe River, and the east-west axis along the foot of the central European uplands. In addition to this, Dresden is the junction of three great trunk routes in the German railway system: (1) Berlin-Prague-Vienna, (2) Munich-Breslau, and (3) Hamburg-Leipzig. As a key center in the dense Berlin-Leipzig railway complex, Dresden is connected to both cities by two main lines.
So, the case against Dresden so far, some industries, a handful of which might be considered secondary targets for any bomber mission. And rated as a key communications center together with Berlin, Leipzig and Munich when it comes to any east-west troop movements.

Enter the Russians.
At Yalta, the Soviet General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians.
"Our wishes are:
[SNIP]
b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig)."

Well then, the Russians wants the allies to prevent troop movement from the west to the east. Hey, look at Dresden. The marshalling yards has been bombed twice before. On 7/10/44 8th airforce send 30 bombers who delivered 72.5 tons on target. Then on 16/1/45 the brave 8th returned with 133 B-17's, this time virtually obliterating the marshalling yards with 322 tons of bombs, 42 of which were incendiaries. We know that the marshalling yards were not in operation less than a month after this strike. In fact there aren't that many trains running at all in Germany in Feb 1945. But lets not care about such petty details now. We must stop every possible troop movement from west to east. Berlin and Leipzig has already been hit hard many times. Berlin by a staggering 67,607.3 tons, and Leipzig by a modest 11,616.4 tons. Now its time for Dresden.

So...
On the night between the 13/14th of Feb 1945 the RAF Bomber Command conducted its glorious night raid on Dresden. 722 heavy bombers dropped 1477 tons of high explosive and 1182 tons of incendiary bombs on Dresden. Naturally they did not aim for anything in particular in the city. Heck no. The night bombing is still so inaccurate that the smallest thing they can hope to hit is a city, forget trying to target any marshalling yards. No sir. Aim for the city center. Still using the good 'ol bomber stream tactic, the bombers came in individually over the target in a long long line. The night bombings went on for the better part of the night, lasting several hours. Leaving behind what can only be described as I dunno...the scene of a crime?

The bombings resulted in fires that did great damage to the city proper, particularly in the older and more densely built up areas. Early official Allied post-strike reports estimated that 85 per cent of the fully built-up city area was destroyed, that the old part of the city, which comprised the greater portion of the built-up areas was largely wiped out, that the majority of buildings in the inner suburbs was gutted, and that in the outer suburbs, few buildings were effected by the area bombing attack. Virtually all major public buildings appeared heavily gutted or severely damaged. Public utilities, and facilities such as slaughter houses, warehouses, and distribution centers, were severely affected. A very large number of the city’s industrial facilities were destroyed or severely damaged, with perhaps a four-fifth’s reduction in the productive capacity of the arms plants. Later British assessments, which were more conservative, concluded that 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings were seriously damaged and that 56 per cent of the non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings) had been heavily damaged. Of the total number of dwelling units in the city proper, 78,000 were regarded as demolished, 27,700 temporarily uninhabitable but ultimately repairable, and 64,500 readily repairable from minor damage. This later assessment indicated that 80 per cent of the city’s housing units had undergone some degree of damage and that 50 per cent of the dwellings had been demolished or seriously damaged.

So, dawn breaks on the 14th of February. No on can imagine the scenes in Dresden this morning. Anyway, as the firebrigades (or whats left of them anyway) of Dresden do their best to control some of the fires the 8th Airforce are preparing for the days strike. While the people of Dresden are fighting for their lives, trying to survive, trying to save their familymembers 316 B-17s are warming their engines. They arrive around noon. The citizens of the doomed city have no warning before the strike. No air sirens to alert them to the danger, everything in the city is already destroyed.

From the blue sky comes the second wave of destruction. This time a modest 295 tons of high explosive bombs, combined with 295 tons of incendiaries rains down on the city. This time however, the damage is concentrated in the marshalling yards area, after all, the bombers are B-17's, with their excellent Norden sights they actually have some chance of hitting what they are aiming at. The dense smoke over Dresden however makes aiming difficult, so the bombs are scattered all over the city once more.

Home they go, the brave crews of the mighty eight. Heroes of WWII, who took the fight to the Germans, and broke the back of the German war industry.

But they return of course. The next day 211 B-17's return with their load of 467 tons of High explosives. I'm not really sure why they did return a third time...a coup de graze perhaps?

I wont even bore you all with the numbers of civilians killed. No one will ever agree on the total number of killed in Dresden anyway, it was simply impossible to count them all. And no one will ever know how many refugees were in the city that first night.

Nor will anyone ever really care, no brit or american anyway. After all it was war, and the Germans started it. And what the Germans were doing in the east was far far worse. And take a look at Coventry 1940, the krauts did it first. Nope..those Germans sure had it coming.

I think I'll end this post with a quote that pretty much sums up the brittish view on things.
Quote

OPERATION 'THUNDERCLAP'
(Attack on German Civilian Morale)
Introduction [SNIP]
7. The following principles are put forward as essential to the achievement of the maximum moral effect upon a civilian population:-
(i) The attack must be delivered in such density that it imposes as nearly as possible a 100% risk of death to the individual in the area to which it is applied.
(ii) ... the total weight of the attack must be such as to produce an effect amounting to a national disaster.
(iii) The target chosen should be one involving the maximum associations, both traditional and personal, for the whole population.
(iv) The area selected should embrace the highest density of population.
(v) Attacks of this nature are likely to have maximum effect when the populaiton has become convinced that its Government is powerless to prevent a repetition. [SNIP]
15. Total devastation [...] would, moreover, offer incontovertible proof of a modern bomber force; it would convince our Russian allies [...] of the effectiveness of Anglo-American air power.

Quote

"the bombers ..... must in future be used to kill German civilians" - directive No.22 to BC
-War Cabinet policy paper, dated 3rd. November 1942

I really dont understand how any BC crew member who flew over Dresden, or any other German city for that matter, could ever look at himself in the mirror again without feeling disgust. But then again, that's just me.

Offline Seeker

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Dresden
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2002, 03:35:07 AM »
You still miss a fundemantal difference between Nazism and "the rest"; which did indeed justify any and all measures:

One may survive, in any society by conforming. Wiether or not this confirmance is bearable to you individualy is niether here nor there, but it's still a fact. Those millions of Russians and Chineese who died under thier respective regimes were criminals in the eyes of their leaders (wither you agree with the definition of criminality set by the regime is neither here nor there). The point is: behave and survive.

Under Nazism, on the other hand, no crime was nessacery. One could be condemmend for the mere fact of one's existance.

Now, you've made many well founded critiques of the Allied's standpoints and actions. Critiques which Allied supporters do sometimes need to hear, it's true.

But you persist in defending the indefensible. And going down this dead end road ultimately diminishes you.

Offline babek-

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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2002, 04:09:50 AM »
German TV aired last week a special report about the bombing of Dresden.

It showed that the main target was to kill as much civilians as possible and there has been more losses after the terrorbombing than after the nuke-bomb in Hiroshima.

Even the very near lying railwaystation of Dresden was not attacked or touched by the bombing.

The bombing was an ugly act of terrorism - the war was won for the allies and the city overcrowded with refugees from the Eastern Front.

Today Germany - especially after the reunification - is preparing to rebuild the great dome of Dresden.
40 million Euro have already been collected and the work is going on to rebuild this fantastic building.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2002, 04:32:31 AM »
russian tanks were within 90 to 100 miles of dresden


in august 1944 General Spaatz urged for concentrated attacks of oil targets he was vigorously opposed by Harris who never wavered from the belief that the systematic destruction of urban areas would on its own end the war. Inspite of a persuasive body of evidence to the contrary. But this is a moot point because at the time of the Dresden attacks germany was all but defeated.

Thunderclap was designed as an operation to crush civilian morale and end the war. Despite the fact that 45 of the 60 leading cities in Germany had already been devastated.

Harris's Directorate of Bomber Operations produced some rough calculations on the effects of thunderclap

Quote
If we assume that the daytime population of the area attacked is 300,000 we may expect 200,000 casualties. 50% of these or 110,000 may expect to be killed. It is suggested that such an attack, resulting in so many deaths, the great proportion of which will be key personnel, cannot but have a shattering effect on political and civilian morale all over Germany.........


Originally thunderclap made it all the way to SHAEF before being shelved. It had been opposed by Spaatz. Spaatz made a counter proposal emphasized the destruction of targets requiring precision daylight bombing rather then area bombing.

SHAEF's Psychological Warfare Division had stigmatized thunderclap as "terroristic"

The allies needing to strengthen their hands at yalta and needed some evidence to show the russians they were committed to aiding them in the east.

The joint intelligence committe of the british war cabinet was considering the same problem. On January 25  it produced 2 papers. The 1st proposed that heavy bombers  should support the russians in interdicting german troop movements from west to east. The 2nd re examined thunderclap.

Air Commadore Bufton (Director of Bomnbing Ops) suggested to Vice-Admiral Bottomly (Deputy Chief of the Air Staff) that it should include simultaneous attacks on Breslau, Munich and Berlin.

Quote
If the operation were launched at a time when there was still no obvious slackening in the momentum of the Russian drive, it might well have the appearence of a close co-ordination in planning between the Russians and ourselves. Such a deduction on the part of the enemy would greatly increase the moral effect of both operations.


The 2nd paper though casted doudt on the likeyhood of the 4 day assualt causing a german colapse but moved to consider the role heavy bombers could play in triggering the uncontrollable movement of huge numbers of refugees back and forth across what was left of the Reich.

Air Chief Marshall Porter was skeptical about the Berlin option, preferring to concentrate on oil and jet fighter production. Nevertheless he conceded that the allies should commit their "available effort" to "one big attack on Berlin and attacks on Dresden, Leipzig, Chemnitz and any other city that would aid in evacuation from the east and hamper troops from the west".

On 25 January Churchill telephoned Air Minster Sinclair wanting to know what plans Bomber Command had for "blasting the Germans on their retreat from Breslau" Portal informed Sinclair about thunderclap but when Sinclair reported back to churchill he took a different line suggesting the use of the Tactical Air Force to hurry the retreating Germans rather then civilians. He stated he believed it would be extremely difficult for heavy bombers to effectively interfere with these german troop movemants.

Churchill replied

Quote
I did not ask you last night about plans for harrying  the german retreat from Breslau. On the contrary, I asked whether Berlin, and no doudt other large cities in the east, should not be especially attractive targets. I am glad this is under examination. Pray report to me tomorrow what is going to be done"

I am tired of typing but I will follow up Bomber Commands briefing notes to the groups involved in thunderclap.

All this should be kept in context with the actual situation in Germany at the time.

Harris knew there was no real war industry in dresden, knew there was no troop movements through dresden and knew it would not end the war. Also the soviets were only 90 miles away.

What were left with is what SHAEF's Psychological Warfare Division labeled "terroristic".

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2002, 05:07:53 AM »
If I remember correctly, Dresden was captured by Soviet forces 3 days after the bombings.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2002, 05:22:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seeker
You still miss a fundemantal difference between Nazism and "the rest"; which did indeed justify any and all measures:

One may survive, in any society by conforming. Wiether or not this confirmance is bearable to you individualy is niether here nor there, but it's still a fact. Those millions of Russians and Chineese who died under thier respective regimes were criminals in the eyes of their leaders (wither you agree with the definition of criminality set by the regime is neither here nor there). The point is: behave and survive.

Under Nazism, on the other hand, no crime was nessacery. One could be condemmend for the mere fact of one's existance.

Now, you've made many well founded critiques of the Allied's standpoints and actions. Critiques which Allied supporters do sometimes need to hear, it's true.

But you persist in defending the indefensible. And going down this dead end road ultimately diminishes you.


I would like to stress that I have never, ever tried to defend the nazis. And I must admit that it surprises me that you have this opinion of me. I have tried to claim that there is a difference between being German and being a nazi. If this is interpreted as me defending the nazis, then I don't really know what to say. I am also of the firm belief that if you commit a crime, be it a warcrime or a crime against humanity, it does not matter what color your uniform is, the victims will be just as dead, the action just as deplorable.

Two wrongs does not make one right. You cannot say "damn Germans, they shot our POW's" and then turn a blind eye to the instances where allied soldiers shot German POW's, or justify those actions with either "they did it first" or "they had it coming". Neither can you say "damn Germans, they killed innocent women and children", and then turn a blind eye to the Soviet monstrosities when they entered German soil in 45 or to the British area bombing campaign. I have also seen variations on these opinions under the themes "they did it first, but we did it better" or "they would have done it just as bad as us, if they had had the chance" (both these tend to pop up when you discuss wwii area bombings.

The "they did it first" argument is in my opinion hopelessly wrong. You dont really want to go down that road, because that puts you on par with one of the blackest regimes in the history of mankind. The "they had it coming" or "they did it first, we did it better" is also fundamentally flawed.

Allow me to exemplify exactly what I mean. A little known fact is that lots ( =more than 300, less than 1 000) of ethnic Germans were killed in the first days of the war in Poland. When the Germans invaded, some Polish nationalists decided to extract revenge on these Germans. So they killed them, and torched their houses. Now exactly how far would I get with any argument that this somehow justified how Germany treated poles after that?

Punish the guilty ones, regardless of their uniform. Dont blame the innocent ones, regardless of their uniform. Dont try to paint the world in black or white, because it will only lead to false conclusions. Do these opinions diminish me?

Offline straffo

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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2002, 05:51:12 AM »
war is hell ... no matter wich side ... there will ever inoncent killed...

Offline Dawvgrid

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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2002, 07:47:30 AM »
I really dont understand how any BC crew member who flew over Dresden, or any other German city for that matter, could ever look at himself in the mirror again without feeling disgust. But then again, that's just me.  by Hortlund
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could the crew on Enola Gay look themselves in the mirror.
Those 2 A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was uncalled for,,,
,,,and the explanation about huge casualties,in case of invasion
I dont buy it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and dont give the Iwo Jima,Okinawa
story,,,"look how the Jap fought fanaticly.
just my humble oppinion;).

Offline jan

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Dresden
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2002, 09:57:51 AM »
At at 5:29 a.m. on July 16, 1945, the United States conducted the world's first nuclear test explosion at Alamogordo, New Mexico. The Nuclear Age was born, a product of the fear, violence, and suffering of World War II. J. Robert Oppenheimer, director of the Los Alamos Laboratory, recalled the following passage from the Bhagavad Gita upon witnessing the explosion: "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" - this pretty much says it all.

the history of nuclear warfare

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2002, 10:04:40 AM »
Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? :rolleyes:

The Germans were defeated....everyone new it

Weren't these the same Germans who had mounted a huge counter offensive only 8 weeks before?

War is hell, people die. The victors are heroes and the losers are criminals. This is because the victors are left to write the history. The main difference in this case is that the losers of this particular war WERE CRIMINALS! :mad:

Offline StSanta

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Dresden
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2002, 11:22:19 AM »
War is hell, sure. Repeatedly targetting civilians with firebombs after virtually all the infrastructure of a city has been destroyed is making it worse.

Too often I see the excuse "war is hell" for anything that happens during a war. It *is* hell, I am in complete agreement. The soldiers on the ground suffering emotional stress and seeing their friends being shot to pieces are bound to be affected - I understand why they vent their frustrations in an extremely aggressive manner towards anyone they consider to be the enemy.

But what we're talking about here are men, now far separated from the war, with experience of the tragedy of deliberate bombing of civilians, who are sitting down with a brandy and a cigar and saying "maybe we ought to kill 300 000 civilians in the next two days. That might break their spirits. We know it won't of course: we've been through exactly this, and it only stiffened our resolve, but maybe this time if we let the dice loose, we'll get a7 from one die".

It's preposterous. The Americans did it the civilized way, really (as Toad and others have pointed out to me in the past). They did their best to target military installations.
But what those British gentlemen sitting in the comfort of their homes decided is nothing short of criminal in my book.

Suppose we have an audio tape with Milosevic ordering his entire airforce, including Cessna's and everything else that can fly, to "kill 200 000 Croat bastards". That'd be firm evidence in the court today.

Of course, we must see past times with past time glasses - we cannot apply our current moral standards to the past.

I contend, however, that even with past moral standards, the deliberate targetting and termination of more than 600 000 people, decided by men far away from the war in their comfortable homes, and executed by men who did brave many dangers, but didn't experience the guts and mud of the grunts, is *still* very similar to a criminal act.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki have great monuments. When I ask people "what killed more, allied firebombing of Dresden or the nukes?" people say the nukes.

An arrogant atrocity. I look at this with no bias towards the Germans or the Brits. Both did atrocious things - Germans more so than Brits. It does not change the fact that those fine gentlemen did take some horrendous decisions based on something they knew to be false.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2002, 10:37:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
executed by men who did brave many dangers, but didn't experience the guts and mud of the grunts


May I recommend Martin Caidin's Black Thursday. I used to have it on my shelf but it's gone somewhere. IIRC, Caidin in one chapter deals directly with this idea of "the clean air war" envied by the troops in the trenches.

Dresden? I've said all I have to say in the old threads on this topic.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2002, 10:40:02 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2002, 11:33:57 PM »
Quote
If we assume that the daytime population of the area attacked is 300,000 we may expect 200,000 casualties. 50% of these or 110,000 may expect to be killed. It is suggested that such an attack, resulting in so many deaths, the great proportion of which will be key personnel, cannot but have a shattering effect on political and civilian morale all over Germany

Where did you see this?

Two thirds of the popultion casualties, over one third dead. The highest death tolls in attacks on German cities were in the order of 3%, not 33%.

No bombing rid on Germany ever approached figures like this, Hamburg, a much larger raid than Dresden, killed 40,000, Dresden 35,000. Where have you seen claims that BC calculated 110,000 deaths from a raid?

Quote
I contend, however, that even with past moral standards, the deliberate targetting and termination of more than 600 000 people, decided by men far away from the war in their comfortable homes, and executed by men who did brave many dangers, but didn't experience the guts and mud of the grunts, is *still* very similar to a criminal act.

What is your alternative pln for the war that wouldn't involve casualties?
Germn civilian deaths from bombing were a small proportion of Germn deaths overall, and a tiny proportion of total csualties for the war.

If German troops had fortified a city would you have ordered it siezed? Bear in mind the siege of Leningrad killed as many civilians as died in the whole of the war.

Bear in mind also that German death squads killed an average of 8000 civilians every single day of the war. Whatever your plans, you have to be aware every day's delay means thousands more dead.

Based on that average, 10 to 20 times as many civilians were murdered by the Germans in the days between Dresden and the end of the war as died in the Dresden attack.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2002, 11:48:50 PM by Nashwan »

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2002, 11:59:55 PM »
Here's what one survivor of the Dresden raid has to say about it (His comment is at the bottom of the bomber's baedeker quote):

Quote
FROM "THE BOMBER'S BAEDEKER"
(GUIDE TO THE ECONOMIC IMPORTANCE OF GERMAN TOWNS AND CITIES, 1944)

DRESDEN (Saxony)
51°3' N. 13°45' E.      600 miles:   (640,000)
Dresden, the capital of Saxony, is situated on both banks of the river Elbe, and stands at approximately 360 feet above sea level. The left bank, with the Altstadt, or old town, as nucleus is the larger of the two parts; in it are found the commercial centre, the residential area and public buildings, and some industries, mainly in its S-Suburbs. Neustadt, on the right bank, and its suburbs contain industrial centres and administration.
In peace time tobacco, chocolate, and confectionery manufacture played a large part in Dresden's industrial activity; there are also a large number of light engineering works and makers of machinery which are now engaged on all kinds of war production, many of which are too small to be listed individually. Several important factories are making electric motors, precision and optical instruments and chemicals.
The munitions workshops in the old arsenal occupy an extensive area to the North of Neustadt, along the railway to Klotsche, in the industrial region which extends past the aerodrome to the Dresdner Heide. In the Heide, a large heath, munitions are reported to be stored in quantities.
Dresden is an important railway centre. The main connections between South and East Germany and the direct line from Berlin to Prague and Vienna pass through Dresden whence several branch lines lead to Leipzig and other parts of industrial Saxony. The river harbour is of considerable importance to the freight traffic of the Elbe.
To the SW. of the town in the valley of the Weisseritz is the industrial town of Freital (dealt with under its own heading) and a small coal field which supplies the light industries that have been developed in Dresden.
Along the northern bank of the Elbe between Dresden and Meissen are a number of industrial settlements which are outside the municipal area of Dresden. These have been dealt with separately under the town headings Radebeul, Coswig near Dresden, and Meissen.

COMMENT:
This is a page from a sort of directory kept aboard British and American bombers, from which crews might pick targets on their own in case they hadn't been able to carry out their assigned mission that night or day. I reproduce it here to show that there wasn't much in the Dresden area worth bombing out of business according to our own Intelligence experts. So burning the whole place down wasn't an exercise in military science. It was religious. It was Wagnerian. It was theatrical. It should be judged as such.

From the appendix of Kurt Vonnegut's "Fates Worse Than Death" Vintage, London 1992  ISBN 0-09-999890-4
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2002, 12:44:58 AM »
Toad, not saying it's clean. Just saying there's less mud at 30 000 feet.

And, that other threadh was about the yanks. This one is about the Brits, and this time I got the fact straight.

:)