Author Topic: Engine start sequence in RL vs AH (non-micromanagement) (Read 314 times)

SKurj · « **on:** March 07, 2002, 10:45:54 AM »

In RL could these aircraft turn an engine off and on at will when pulling 3 g.. how about 6g?

Seen alotta windmilling props lately.. seems a little ridiculous to be in the middle of a furball, and your opponent is turning his engine on between turns and off in the turns...
(yeah yeah i died in this particular case)

Not sure what could be done about this, perhaps a delay of a few seconds when you try to restart. Either you have to hold the start button key pressed for a period of time, or you can just hit the start button but the engine won't actually fire for say a random period of time between 2-4 seconds.

Yeah there are many things in RL we don't have to concern ourselves with in the game, but i personally think this would add a little something to the current 'game' +Q without taking anything away or complicating things.

SKurj

Tac · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2002, 11:01:50 AM »

I think its your FE that shows windmilling props skurj.

In the WW in Jan, where the 38 was the plane, ManeTMP and I were tangled in a nasty rolling sciscors on the deck.. I had hit him and he was smoking from one engine.. and I saw the prop on that engine windmilling and on the last series of sciscors, that prop had stopped.

I ran outta gas and augered, Mane said he had his engine hit but none of his engines died during the entire fight.. and there I was thinking I was facing a crippled plane

Also, turning the engine off in a fight... why? lowering throttle is better and faster. In AH the engines take 1 or 2 seconds to come back to full power.

SKurj · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2002, 11:07:08 AM »

I'll have to ask Drex Tac.

But after he outturned my hurri in his F6(was stall fight and i was on wep) with one of these windmilling props I tried it.

The advantage of killing the engine it seemed to me was a tighter turn (was in jug) and i used it successfully several times that evening...

SKurj

moose · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2002, 11:45:31 AM »

turning the engine off might help since it would remove the torque, allowing the aircraft to roll evenly in both directions

not sure if this is the case or not. i've seen windmilling props too on friendly fighters flyin in formation so i think it's just something you see on your FE?

hitech - how does this work?

pimpjoe · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2002, 11:46:17 AM »

i've ran into this a few times. the one i remember the most was a fight with a 109 piloted by durr. we were in a good fight and i got him to over shoot but when he went by i heard his engine die out(i thought he was out of gas) stupid me tried to turn fight with him thinking he had a dead engine(i was in a p47). well the outcome of this story is obvious. while sitting in the tower i was asking him about his dead engine and he told me about killing the engine.

StSanta · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2002, 08:01:10 AM »

I know of some very prominent pilots who turn their engine off deliberately in fights.

And, the windmilling phenomenoon happens now and then. Just an hour ago, I followed DblTrubl's 190D9 up in a rope a dope in my c202, since I had hit him, saw smoke and saw his props windmilling.

His engine wasn't dead - he had time to shoot me in the rope a dope before he lost all fluid in his radiatior and his engine seize.

Quite a good trick, turning off yer enemy to fool the enemy. It wasn't what DblTrubl did, but how I saw it.

So it does affect yer tactical thinking.

I think SKurj's suggestion is an excellent one: engine off would be instantaneous, but engine on should take a random number of seconds between 0-5 or so.

Tac: it seems when you're in flight, the engine powers up to max directly.

In some planes, there's a well known cheat: hit 'e' three times when you're on the runway waiting to take off, and the engine revs up instantly. I think it is related to the fact that engines seem to power up instantly in the air.

Only works on some planes though (know it does for 190's and 109's)

K West · « **Reply #6 on:** March 08, 2002, 09:34:47 AM »

"I know of some very prominent pilots who turn their engine off deliberately in fights."

Then they are not "very prominent" pilots but cheap, lame bellybutton "gamers".

Westy

mauser · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2002, 11:13:31 AM »

"I know of some very prominent pilots who turn their engine off deliberately in fights."

I've been wondering about this too, and I know a few of my squaddies have been also. I've only gone as far as idling the throttle when going for increased "pointing power," i.e. ability to get the nose around to where I want it. This is for both turns and pulling over the top. I can't bring myself to turn off the engine because it seems so counter-intuitive, but I guess since all it takes is pressing "e" and a couple of seconds...

I'm assuming that even if the FE shows someone else's prop stopped, that at least you can still hear their engine if you're close enough. I remember a squaddie hearing one of these pilots' engines go off in the middle of what was probably a knife fight.

Just how well could throttle/fuel system/engine take abuse irl? Could you really ram the throttle from full to idle to full again, much less completely shut it off and then go for an airstart in the middle of combat? Not being rhetorical here, I really don't know

mauser

Toad · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2002, 11:20:35 AM »

Why do you think the engine would not instantly restart with a windmilling prop?

I have done this in RL in both a 450 HP Pratt Radial and a 200 HP inverted inline overhead cam 6.

In both cases the engine instantly restarted when the other fuel tank was selected and when the mag was switched back on. RPM wound right up to where the throttle lever commanded in a heartbeat.

So, what's the beef here? Well, other than d*mn few people would ever do it deliberately in RL.....

K West · « **Reply #9 on:** March 08, 2002, 11:31:05 AM »

"... the engine instantly restarted when the other fuel tank was selected and when the mag was switched back on. RPM wound right up to where the throttle lever commanded in a heartbeat."

Cripes. And here I thought it was as simple as pressing a button and just flooring the accelerator, er throttle.

"...d*mn few people would ever do it deliberately in RL......"

How about in combat?

Westy

K West · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2002, 11:49:10 AM »

from a quick web search :

"Years ago, I was on a go-around in the right seat of a Piper Saratoga when the pilot ran the left tank dry and the engine stopped when we were at 200' AGL past midfield almost to the airport boundary. Luckily he got a restart before we began trimming trees with a windmilling prop. In a P-51, such a mistake would be
deadly."

If engines were easy enough to restart while airborne why would it be have been a potentially fatal problem for a P-51?

Westy

Toad · « **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2002, 12:01:13 PM »

Could be a lot of things... .how long it takes a P-51 to "refill" the fuel lines and reprime the pump? How fast a P-51 slows down compared to the Piper? I dunno. I haven't flown a P-51 but I know guys that have them and next time I see them I'll ask.

All I can tell you is that my two times they restarted instantly. In the case of the gas, we were actually trying to see how long one tank lasted in cruise. We were checking the tank guage against actual practice and we were within 2 minutes of when we were going to switch anyway. I started a descent and the change in attitude moved the remaining gas to the forward part of the tank, away from the pickup. Engine quit instantly, prop windmilling, switched tank, engine restarted instantly.

Same with the inadvertent mag shutoff.

The reason folks.. normal folks.. don't do it in RL is because there is always that chance that your single motor WON'T restart for some reason. The odds may be well in your favor but if it's the "day the bear eats you" then you may lose the airplane. Pretty steep price for forking around with a perfectly running engine, at least IMO.

K West · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2002, 12:17:03 PM »

Thanks Toad. I did send an email to the person who made that web page with the quoted remarks but the email given on the web page bounced back to me. I was honestly curious as to the "why."

Regarding AH though, I do think a compromise between the extemely simplistic "press E = instant on"and real world methods, even if not terribly difficult or time consuming, would be good if only to help remove one method of "gaming" the game.

Westy

popeye · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2002, 12:43:19 PM »

"the engine instantly restarted when the other fuel tank was selected"

Interesting. I believe you need to "press E" to restart the engine after selecting another fuel tank in AH.

SKurj · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2002, 07:42:00 PM »

Well... just gimme something in game to discourage the turning OFF of the engine when maneuvering ...

Cruising around while pulling 1gee is one thing, pulling 4-5 gee inverted is another...

SKurj