g10 vs 51d at 25k

[WhiteHawk]

Which is historically faster at 25000ft.  the g10 or the
p51.  I recently tracked down a pony (quite easily) at
25k with a 109g-10.  This really surprised me, but then it
happened again?  (2  poor p51 pilots or g10 THAT fast?)

[eddiek]

We have a G10 with some uprated engine or something.  Any figures I have ever found on the G10 list it's top speed at 428 mph, right there with the Jugs and the D9, but someone else said our G10 has a different engine modeled with increased power.  Can't remember which engine, or even how many G10's were made with this particular powerplant, but it is what we have.

[mipoikel]

About a month or 2 ago I tracked a Dora with G10 in a deck. That guy was really amazed how I did it. It just goes faster sometimes.

[Kweassa]

It's safe to say AH Bf 109G-10 is faster than the P-51 at all alts, but it is also safe to say practically the P-51 is faster than G-10 at all alts to, since the listed top speed is actually a theoretical one and something much  more than  the maneuverability of 109s can  handle.

 The listed top speed of AH 109G-10 is about 440mph at 22k (704kph at  6700 meters alt.) but I've never been able to reach actual 440 mph with the G-10 at that alt, but anyhow it  does easily go off 400mph speed and more often than not the compression is so bad the speed makes you worry more than be thrilled.

 Now, the figure I have on Bf 109K-4 is 727kph(about 454mph), and the figure I have for the Bf 109G-10 is 689kph(about 430mph). So, the figure seems to suggest our 109G-10 is somewhere between an actual 109G-10 and an actual 109K-4. Another thing to take into account is the 109G models, after 1944, have no 'exact' figures in them since there were all sorts of field modifications and experiments in so many 109s that it's pretty difficult to sort them out. There are more than 2~3 types of 109G-6s, and more than 4 types of 109G-14s counting only the most 'famous' and 'standard' field modifications.

 In the case of the G-14, a version that was planned to upgrade old G-6s to the standards of G-10 and K-4, the early version records a speed of 665kph(415mph), and the final G-14/AS records 680kph(425mph). So in theory, though no actual proof exists, a it is more than possible that a G-10 that is almost near to the standards of 109K MIGHT HAVE existed.

 Now I don't know if HTC has taken this into account when they put in the G-10, but I think it is to be viewed as a G-10 that responds to the fans' request for a 109K-4. A 109G that performs as fast as a 109K, but doesn't have the minor arrangements in aerodynamics the  Kurfurst has.

[Kweassa]

A little example

 G-14 early version

 G-14 latter version

 G-14/AS (Type#1)

 G-14/AS (Type#2)

[Wotan]

By Doc 109, May 2001

The DB605AS was born around the concept that it could be possible to recycle the existing DB605A into a high altitude engine, comparable to the new DB605D. The DB605D needed 2 bulges on the forward edge of the underside cowl due to the slightly different profile of the valve covers.  Otherwise, the engine had similar dimensions to the A version.  The AS and D versions had virtually identical performance ratings as well. This may look weird from our point of view, but there is a rational explanation.

The DB605D was intended to be the sole high altitude version of the DB605 but the program encountered huge delays.  The situation deteriorated to the point that in the spring of 1943, the increasingly desperate Luftwaffe ordered an interim solution to be found. That solution was to install the DB603 supercharger on the DB605A. Performances were almost identical to the coming DB605D. In fact, when the DB605D entered production, the DB605AS continued to be produced as well since it allowed for the recycling of existing engines.

After autumn 1944, DB605D engines were only delivered to factories producing new 109G-10s and K-4s, while the DB605AS engines were delivered exclusively to the workshop and repair centers, which explains why it’s possible to see a G-10 with a DB605AS- it would have been installed during a repair. The DB605AS was not suitable for the K-4, however, since this aircraft relying upon the engine compressor to supply pneumatic pressure for the centerline MK108 cannon (The G-10 still used bottles).

So, from a visual perspective, the general rule is no DB605D= no bulges= no enlarged oil cooler.

However:  A few of the last DB605AS produced (installed on G-14/AS) got the new valve covers from the D version therefore needing the bulges.

To add even more confusion, some G-14/AS got the lower cowl with bulges in order to use the enlarged oil cooler from the K-4/G-10 versions.

Thus, to reiterate:  GENERALLY, there were no bulges on the AS version, but as we've seen, there are exceptions.

Finally, let's not forget the Erla produced G-10 which had a totally new enlarged underside cowl which makes the plane look like a G-14/AS...

Maybe read this too

[WhiteHawk]

Thanks guys
  BTW..I still would love to see the K-4.  I know the debate
is already over but gee willikerz, what a way to close out the
life cylce of the 109

[Wmaker]

Our G-10 has DB-605DCM engine. Daimler-Benz performance engine type-sheet gives it 2200hp out put reading with MW-50 injection. You can determine the engine type by looking at the profile drawing of AH's G-10 in Claes Sundin's book "Luftwaffe aircraft in profile".

In the picture you can see:

-Service triangle indicating C3-fuel.

-Bulges in the lower part of the cowling.

-Bumb behind pilot's armor indicating MW-50 injection.

So "DCM" engine, "D" for DB-605D, "C" for higher octane C3-fuel and "M" for MW-50 water methanol injection.

Again, with MW-50 the engine gives 2200hp. Should it go that fast with all that hp...damn straight it should.

[Lephturn]

Here is what HTC says:

[Lephturn]

And...

So it's going to depend a great deal on altitude and WEP considerations.  Add to that the fact that you don't necessarily start in equal E situations and the results could vary quite a bit in the arena.  Oh... and don't forget fuel loads and such as well that can affect accelleration.

Often the problem is that inexperienced Pony drivers simply assume they are "the fastest thing around" and don't WEP or dive when they should.