aces

[Karnak]

Sorry RAM, but they were in a target rich envirionment.  They were very good, yes.  Among the best, yes.  The best?  Maybe.

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa got 104 before dying in a transpost plane.  Thats more than 40 kills.  Saburo Sakai got 63 official kills (64 in reality, B-29 <in a Zero> on last day of the war was never official).  Thats more than 40.

The Battleship that Hans-Eudel got was not 30,000 tons.  It was a pre-Dreadnaught.  How many tailgunners did Eudel lose?  How many times was he shot down?

As Johnnie Johnson said, aliied pilots didn't see that many aircraft.  They had no chance to shoot that many down.  After a point, the top pilots are pretty much equal.

Sisu

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
Sorry RAM, but they were in a target rich envirionment.  They were very good, yes.  Among the best, yes.  The best?  Maybe.

Targert rich environtment? yes. They were outnumbered 9-1 in 1944. I call it a TRE  

 

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa got 104 before dying in a transpost plane.  Thats more than 40 kills.  Saburo Sakai got 63 official kills (64 in reality, B-29 <in a Zero> on last day of the war was never official).  Thats more than 40.

Dont take me wrong   I was talking on US aces on Pacific, not Japanese. SAburo Sakai is one of my most admired fighter pilot.

 

The Battleship that Hans-Eudel got was not 30,000 tons.  It was a pre-Dreadnaught.

Sorry to correct you, man. Rudel sank a Gangut class Battleship. 30000 tons, twelve 12 inch guns. It was "Marat" (Ex-Petropavlosk).A full fledged battleship. He sank it in a Ju87 divebomber, when he hit the forward magazines with a 500Kg bomb. It was nearly broken in two.

 

 How many tailgunners did Eudel lose?  How many times was he shot down?

touche...he was the most shot down pilot in WWII. but compare his loss figures with his kills and harm inflicted on enemy. He was the only LW pilot awarded the Golden blades for his Knight's cross with oak leaves, blades adn brilliants. That means something  

As Johnnie Johnson said, aliied pilots didn't see that many aircraft.  They had no chance to shoot that many down.  After a point, the top pilots are pretty much equal.

Sisu[/b]

I dont underestimate Allied pilots. They were skillful and wonderful sticks. Yeager, Gabreski, Johnson, Tuck...but I dont quit them any merit if they tallied say 20 kills at last days of the war, when LW was a skeleton,and a wreck.Torque did that with Eastern front LW pilots, and Early war LW pilots too. I find it VERY sad and pointless.

[Karnak]

Tuck an Galland got eachothers wingmen.

Galland was above with his staffel.
Tuck saw the 109s and ordered his Spits into a defensive circle.
Galland identified the lead, tuck, and dove down to get him.
Tuck saw him coming in his mirror and tightened his turn.
Galland realized that he couldn't get the leader, so he shot the leaders wingman down.
Tuck kicked back to try for a shot at the 109, but he was already away, however his wingman was still vulnerable, so he shot him down.

They found out about that after Tuck was captured in January of '42 when they talked.

Sisu

[Nashwan]

The Marat was a pre-WW1 dreadnought, 26,000t.
From what I've read she was DAMAGED by Stukas, but survived.
RAM, what are these kill figures for the BoB? Are they taken from the 3x overclaim figures the Luftwaffe made?

[humble]

Interesting thread...a couple of quick comment's.

1) the german's had significant experience in the spanish civil war...this helped them alot in WW2 (all russian vets were killed in various purges)...many if not all of the top expertan flew in, or mentored under, Spanish war vet's. As the war progressed the quality of new pilots fell most dramatically on the german side...average life expectancy of a new pilot on eastern front in Sept 44 was 11 days.

2) German pilots had tactical advantage due to circumstance most of the time (BoB only real exception)...this allowed them to control terms of engagement till early 45 when US "roaming escort" tactics began to tell.

3) Since German tactical doctrine concentrated aircraft they traditionally enjoyed local air superiority even when outnumbered overall. The German "slash & run" tactics minimized losses due to "dog fighting" and the defensive nature of the air war maximized pilot lives...no POW's.

So...German pilots benifited from experience, training, tactics and the nature of the war. US, British, Russian...etc...learned from the germans and improved over time on all fronts.

I'd agree that the top german aces stand alone strictly based on there accomplishments, however overall the other combatant's (excluding Japanese) produced a higher overall caliber of pilot by the end of the war...as for scores, many german pilots died within weeks of being transfered to the western front..so there is an issue of overall quality on the eastern front...but the "airguard" (?) regiment's were equal to any western top line unit in pilot quality and equipment.

[Makarov1]

My pilot can beat up your pilot.

[Torque]

Geeze Ram relax.The point I was making is all though the LW pilots did have large numbers under their belts.Numbers don't tell the whole story.BOB is a perfect example,the RAF was engaging 50-100 AC against 200-300 Fighter escorts and they still managed to score more kills.The RAF beat them hands down.That was the first time a level playing field(ACs not#'s) was engaged by both and who was the victor?



[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Nashwan:
The Marat was a pre-WW1 dreadnought, 26,000t.

I regard myself as knower of Battleships of all world. Marat was a WWI Dreadnought (Battleship) that entered service in 4/11/1914 ,named as "Petropavlosk". It was at that time a quite powerful battleship, but years ago from those from Germany and Britain.

It was commisioned as a 26.000ton battleship. After two overhauls it was rated at an operational weight of 29.620 tons. Its machinery and crew compartments were revised, boilers fitted and New mast fitted, new AAA too and modifications to the funnel.

It was a dreadnought. Not a Pre-dreadnought. It was contemporary with Warspite, Queen elizabeth, Ramillies, Royal Oak...etc. It was a BATTLESHIP  

 

From what I've read she was DAMAGED by Stukas, but survived.

The hull stressed to the point of breaking in two when the magazine went kaboom.In deep waters it would have gone down just as Hood did against Bismarck, in less than 3 minutes.

 It was foundered at a port so they strapped some armor to save it and make the ship lighter. Then they refloated it as a training stationary ship. Renamed Volkhov and send to strappers in 1950. It was no longer a combat unit. It was regarded as sunk, and I believe that as it was erased as an effective combat unit, it can be assigned as a kill.
 

RAM, what are these kill figures for the BoB? Are they taken from the 3x overclaim figures the Luftwaffe made? [/b]

Those aren't kill figures. The 5/1 odds were given by torque as the numbers of the luftwaffe versus the RAF in summer '40 in BoB (and they are wrong, LW was some 2300 planes strong and RAF some 700).


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Torque]

Geeze Ram those are total number not engaging numbers.The RAF never engaged in big number until the end when they had the BIG-WING formations.The begining small squadrons of RAF AC were engaging huge numbers of LW.Plenty of time 30-50 RAF AC would fly against massive formations of LW.Plus if the LW was so good how come they never invaded Britain?



[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Karnak]

The RAF overclaimed in the BoB as well.

Sisu

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Torque:
Geeze Ram those are total number not engaging numbers.The RAF never engaged in big number until the end when they had the BIG-WING formations.The begining small squadrons of RAF AC were engaging huge numbers of LW.Plenty of time 30-50 RAF AC would fly against massive formations of LW.Plus if the LW was so good how come they never invaded Britain?

[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]

First-Because Goering stupid close-escort tactics

Second-The lack of endurance of Bf109E made impossible long escort missions, nor air superiority. That was something that RAF pilots used for they advantage.

Third- Kriegsmarine would never have been able to invade Britain. The royal navy was enough to make it impossible, as in summer 1940 germany had NO battleships or Battlecruisers ready for action (because norway invasion Kriegsmarine was in its lowest point of the war until April '45)

Fourth- There was a complete lack of planning. France fell so fast that even Wehrmatch High command was amazed. They were caught by surprise and Seelowe was never a REAL plan but a "imaginary" invasion.

Won or lost, Bob would have never been followed by an invasion. There was even a huge lack of shipping to do the disembark. There were even Rhin-fluvial barges in the OOB!!!!

[Torque]

Ok one more time Geeze Ram

[RAM]

Hey I'm ok!!   Only answering to your posts, nothing more  

Really BoB was near won by LW...Hitler's stupid order to bomb London saved RAF...but not U.K. because Germany was never able to launch the invasion.

As I said Bf109 K/D ratio on BoB was a quite good one, more knowing its endurance problems and that they flew over enemy country. The problem was the Bf110...and German bombers...those were tactical close support planes, never Strategic Bombers.  

So Seelowe would have never happened, regardless of outcome of BoB. IMHO.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
They found out about that after Tuck was captured in January of '42 when they talked.

Cc I remember reading that (Tuck was an awesome Spit pilot), and I remember too the passage relating Tuck's ditching. He had truly bad luck, with his Merlin Dying because ack when straffing (a train I recall isnt it?). He had to ,literally,insult his wingman to make him break and return to base, as he was done. Then when trying to ditch he saw a AAA battery that started to fire at him. He straffed it with the last rounds he had and ditched...

He then saved his life somehow when some German AAA people came to kill him because what he did to their battery. Dont recall what exactly happened but the germans found something funny there and started to laugh.

I call that a tricky ditch  .

[ra]

<<what about the "Pacific Aces"? thrown into combat against a unexperienced, worse equipped enemy>>
 
This statement is only accurate in describing the late Pacific war.

When the Pacific war began Japanese pilots were among the best in the world.  It took something like 5 years of rigorous training to go from cadet to active fighter pilot in the Japanese Navy/Army.  Also, many of the Japanese fighter units had actual combat experience before December 7, 1941.  

Meanwhile, the US Navy and Marines were not training nearly enough pilots to meet the Japanese in the air.  Bomber and transport pilots had to be quickly re-trained as fighter pilots.

As far as equipment goes, the Zeke was considered better than anything in the US arsenal in most ways.  The US Navy had only recently given up biplanes. And Japan had the advantage of numbers.  

The late war Turkey Shoots happened because in the early war a few outnumbered Navy, Marine, and Army pilots flying mediocre planes killed most of the experienced Japanese pilots, and Japanese industry couldn't put out a world class plane in the numbers required to match America's industrial abilities.  The Turkey Shoots came AFTER the butt whooping.

ra