aces

[RAM]

Agreed RA. 100%.Is my fault not to have expressed it better.

 Japanese navy pilots were to be really feared until they were slaughtered in useless and tiring attacks on Guadalcanal, flying from Rabaul. After that they were done as a fighting force (with few exceptions of course).

But from mid'43 onwards Japanese pilots were green quality...and in that period was when the P38 (the plane that most aces created in Pacific T.O.),F6F and F4U (a big improvement from F4F)came into action. And the Japanese standard navy fighter was to be the A6M3 until more than 6 months after these planes came into service...a6M5 was an improvement...but not by far enough.

Before the Solomons campaign the thing was REALLY tough for American pilots. After that things were much more easy, but I never said that American late war aces on Pacific had less quality or merit than the early ones.

That was my point when I compared PTO with Eastern FRont.

Sorry I didnt explained it better before.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]

[NO_UNCLE_CM]

not use on those but the altime ace is a german i believe. i i can fing the web site i saw it on i'll post it. he had a most impressive record for kills. it seemed unbeleivable...


UNC...OUT!!!

[RAM]

Uncle, the "recordman" Ace of Aces fighter pilot of all times is Erich Hartmann, LW pilot on Eastern Front in WWII.

352 Kills, mostly in Eastern front, but I believe at least 2 of those kills are P51s scored in very last days of WWII, when he was flying his Me109G14.

A truly amazing number...even more if we see that his first kill was in mid '43!!!

I think that Germany has the top ranks aces in Fighter aces(Hartmann), Tank aces (I am playing blind in this one but I am pretty sure that it was a Tiger commander) and Submarine skipper aces (Otto Kretchmer with 350.000 tons of allied shipping more or less).



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Nashwan]

RAM, I agree with most of what you're saying, (although I still don't think the Marat actually sank), but
First-Because Goering stupid close-escort tactics
I must take issue with. Up to the point the pilots started to fly close escort, the 109s had been having a relatively easy time of it, engaging only when they had the advantage. After that point, Luftwaffe bomber losses went down, as did their losses v the RAF overall. 109 pilots may not have liked it but it was a sensible tactic.
The BoB was not a strategic bombing offensive until the last phase, which the Germans turned to because they had not been winning with their earlier tactics. The losses the Germans had been suffering up till they turned on London were too large for them to sustain. Whilst this was also the case for the RAF, British fighter production was running at 4 times the German rate, and many shot down RAF pilots were able to fly again. Switching to all out attacks on London was necesary for the Germans because they no longer had enough fighters to cover all their spread out raids in force.
The range of the 109 was not really a factor. They had sufficent combat time over England, the only thing longer range would have given them would have been the chance to attack targets deeper inland, where the odds would have been even futher against them.
Operation Sea Lion was a real plan, the Germans even went so far as to strip river barges from all over Europe to transport troops. It was to have been carried out after the LW had destroyed the RAF, so the LW would have had the task of keeping the RN out of the channel. In hindsight the plan looks stupid and would almost certainly have failed, even if the Germans had won the BoB, but at the time Hitler and co took it very seriously. They even planned the civil administration of occupied Britain.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Top tank ace was not a tiger- it was a sherman M4A1 that fought in normandy. Poor girl had 14 confirmed german tank kills before she and her American crew were killed. The commander's name I can't remember but he learned his "method" from watching Canadian tank crews in the battles after D-Day. Canadians developed tactics of running two tanks quickly across open areas where a german tank was hiding and when the tank started tracking them a third would drive straight at it firing at the bottom of the turret. The record holder improved on it using his M4A1 instead of the smaller canadian sherman's.
  But this is also subjective. There could probably have been a higher scoring german tank commander on the eastern front however I don't think enough survived to record their personal kills. I know the german units in russia had extremely high kill rates during the beginning of the war (which reversed by the end muhahaha).
  BTW my info comes second hand from a book on Canadian units in normandie, can anyone provide more details?

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Nashwan:
I must take issue with. Up to the point the pilots started to fly close escort, the 109s had been having a relatively easy time of it, engaging only when they had the advantage. After that point, Luftwaffe bomber losses went down, as did their losses v the RAF overall. 109 pilots may not have liked it but it was a sensible tactic.

yes...maybe...but numbers arent all. Ask RAF pilots how they wanted 109s, attached to theyr bombers, or in free-jagd.

And Jagdwaffe felt they had lost the initiative from that exact moment. What can seem a wise tactic regarding numbers, was a wrong on regarding morale, IMHO.

 

The BoB was not a strategic bombing offensive until the last phase, which the Germans turned to because they had not been winning with their earlier tactics. The losses the Germans had been suffering up till they turned on London were too large for them to sustain. Whilst this was also the case for the RAF, British fighter production was running at 4 times the German rate, and many shot down RAF pilots were able to fly again.

Umm yes and no...German's attacks were doing real harm to RAF tactics. Theyr fields were being hammered time after time...and the pilots started to become really tired. Plane replacements were OK...but not so Pilots! RAF was being stretched to breaking point, when the target shifted from RAF to London. And ,with not some shame in them, RAF staff took london attacks as a big air breath. IF LW would've continued attacks on RAF objectives, it would have won the BoB.

And regarding Strategic targets...well main objectives were RAF fields, but Ports, convoys and factories were hit from the very start...and those are Strategic objectives.
 

.
The range of the 109 was not really a factor. They had sufficent combat time over England, the only thing longer range would have given them would have been the chance to attack targets deeper inland, where the odds would have been even futher against them.

[/b]
disagree 100%. 109s had only 20 minutes over England...at cruise speed...many times LW bombers reached their targets alone because the escort had to break towards home. That was a REAL problem for 109s as anyways they had to do no fuel landings and ditches because they used to ran outa fuel despite their efforts.

 

Operation Sea Lion was a real plan, the Germans even went so far as to strip river barges from all over Europe to transport troops. It was to have been carried out after the LW had destroyed the RAF, so the LW would have had the task of keeping the RN out of the channel. In hindsight the plan looks stupid and would almost certainly have failed, even if the Germans had won the BoB, but at the time Hitler and co took it very seriously. They even planned the civil administration of occupied Britain.

It was a REAL plan...where in Hitler's mind?. yes he put a directive ordering the concentration of barges and all shipping that could be available on Dover Straits...only to be killed by RAF jabo sorties.

Wehrmatch and Kriegsmarine always thought that was a suicide plan. Luftwaffe pilots had learned enough in Dunkerke to know that it was unrealizable. Goering didnt, tho.

I still think that if BoB was to be won by germans, still seelowe would've never been launched...and if if had been launched the war would've been 2 years shorter...

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Top tank ace was not a tiger- it was a sherman M4A1 that fought in normandy. Poor girl had 14 confirmed german tank kills before she and her American crew were killed

I know at least 3 tiger crews with more than 100 tank kills in Eastern front, Sorrow...and I think there were more than those. Maybe the one -day -top score was that. but on a career, not, thats for sure

[Staga]

 

Originally posted by Torque:
How many of those Ruskie planes were vintage WW1 I?.

In November 1939 when "WinterWar" starts FAF had about 100 planes and part of them were already out of date. At same time Russians had over 1000 planes in Finnish front.

In February 1940 russians made over 17000 war flights to the Finland with about 1500 planes. FAF dropped about 750 Russian planes when own losses were 61 planes. Because FAF's planes could only protect Southern Finland Sweden send one flight unit to protect northern Finland.

When ContinualWar begun in summer 1941 FAF had 230 fighters and 37 bombers.
25.6.1941 Russians attacked with 300 planes to 19 cities and towns. At first day of "air war" FAF dropped 26 enemy bombers w/out own losses.

Planes in 1939 - 1940
Fokker C.X (DiveBomb.) and C.V.E liaison
Blackburn Ripon IIf   ---''---
Junkers K 43f   --- '' -----
Junkers F 13
Gloster Gladiator  Fighter
Fokker D.XXI  --''---
Bristol Blenheim   Bomber
----------------------------------

Planes 1940 - 1945
Curtiss Hawk 75A (P-36)
Caudron Renault C.R. 714
Brewster b-239 (F2A-1 Buffalo)
Lavotshkin Lagg-3 (Captured)
Heinkel HE 115
Fokker F VIII
Polikarpov I-15 Bis, I-16, I-153 (Captured)
Hawker Hurricane I and IIA
Gloster Gauntlet
Douglas DC-2
Westland Lysander
Koolhoven F.K. 52
Fiat G.50 "Freccia"
Jaktfalken II (Only 1, Donated by Sweden)
Morane Saulnier Ms.406+410(Caudron C.714)
Morane S. 406 improved with russian engine "Monster-Morane"  
Dornier Do-17 z
Junkers Ju-88a
Iljushin DB-3 (Captured)
Tupolev SB-2 (Captured)
Curtiss Warhawk P-40M (Captured?)
Messerschmitt Bf-109 G-2(48pc),G-6(111pc) and G-8(3pieces)

FAF had to use captured planes because it couldn't have planes elsewhere.

Few others too but too tired to write  

So Torque... How about that vintage thing  


Finnish, German and American aces of WW2
 http://www.jyu.fi/~mg/history/comparison.html

I need a lager NOW !  

Staga


[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Nashwan]

The only time the RAF came under real pressure was when the bombing raids concentrated on airfields, and the bombers were closely escorted by 109s. If close escort was a mistake then why is that the only point when the LW looked capable of winning? Prior to that the RAF had been able to disrupt the raids aimed at airfields.
Raids on convoys on ports were designed purely to bring the RAF up to fight, therefore can't be considered strategic. The raids against factories were aimed at aircraft and aero-engine plants, just an extension of the counter-air campaign the BoB began as.

Still don't accept about fuel. There may have been some advantages, but there would have been disadvantages too. The LW managed to put pressure on the RAF, that pressure would have been lessend by drop tanks. LW pilots would have flown fewer, longer sorties, which would have meant fewer combats against the RAF yet tired the LW pilots as much as the shorter more intense sorties did. The RAF pilots, on the other hand, would have flown less sorties, meaning more time for recovery. It was only that intense pressure early in September that gave the LW any chance. Also, drop tanks would have meant combats deeper inside Britain, which would have reduced the German pilots chances of getting home with even minor damage. If you get engine trouble over Dover you have a good chance of getting back to France. Not if it happens over Birmingham.

AT the begining of September the RAF was losing pilots at an unsustainable rate, but so were the Germans. In fact, by mid Sept the Luftwaffe had less operational 109 pilots than the RAF had fighter pilots. The balance was still in Britains favour.

Sea Lion may have been a stupid plan, and British Army wargames of it since the war have always ended up with the German invasion being defeated in 7-10 days, but it was a real plan, and Goering assured Hitler that once air superiority was won he would keep the RN out of the channel. Hitler after all believed his equally stupid boasts throughout the war, eg. at Dunkirk, Stalingrad, and later on in the BoB when he promissed to destroy London and bring Britain to it's knees.

[Staga]

Okay... One more...

Maybe Michael Wittman (k.i.a. near Caen 8.8.1944) could be the "Tank Ace".

Most of kills in eastern front.

141 tanks and 132 antitank guns

 

[Karnak]

RAM, what happened was as follows:

He tried to destroy his maps and aircraft by lighting the maps on fire and stuffing the burning maps into the Spit Vb's fuel tank, but the German infantry saw that and fired a shot near him to disabuse him of that notion (which it did <I've seen photos of his fighter after the Germans hauled it off> ) so he turned around and tried to hide the 29 swastica's on the Spit's nose with his body (he thought they might be agered at the sight of that).  When the Germans got up to him they were shouting at him in German and hitting him a bit.  He thought they were pissed because of the quad 20mm truck he'd just destroyed and its crew which he'd killed (he was dazed from the ditching as his head had hit the reflector gunsight).  They hauled him over to the truck and he was thinking they were going to lynch him.  But instead he realized they were slapping him on the back, pointing at the truck and saying "Gut shot englander, gut shot".  When he looked at the truck, he realized one of his 20mm rounds had gone down the barrel of one of the 20mm guns on the truck, splitting it back like a banana peel, something you only see in cartoons.  They were actually congratulating him on destroying the truck and its crew.

You were right about the rest, including the train.  Unfortunately, a 20mm round through the Merlin will tend to kill it.  One thing to note though, is if Tuck had been fighting over his own territory as the Germans were he'd have been in the air again within 1-2 weeks and would have almost certainly gotten more kills.  He also had to sit out the Battle of Britain and stabilize 257 Squadron which was cracking up.  He'd been given command of it because of his prior good record and the fact that he could speak Russian, and 257 had several Polish pilots.  He got his first Battle of Britain kill on September 15, by which point it was pretty much over.  Funny thing is, it was ground fire that knocked hum down.  No enemy aircraft ever kept him down.

Wing Commander Robert Roland Stanford Tuck, DFC with two bars, DSO with bar, 29 kills, captured in 1942, escaped in 1945.  Born in 1917?, died in 1987.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Torque]

I remember watching a DOC about the Easternfront. There was a gun camera clip of a B 109 bouncing a few biplanes. The commentary was how the LW had a major advantage in air superiority,technically and in numbers. Furthermore said was the fact that LW pilots were very successful in acquiring may kill sorties against such inferior ACs. I wasn’t too aware of the politics of the eastern front. In August 1939 Germany and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact. In a secret additional protocol to this agreement the Baltic states were annexed to the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact allowing the Soviet Union to seize them upon the German invasion of Poland. One of those countries was Finland.Heh guess the Finns were the good guys for awhile. Stalin was more of a menace to his own people than Hitler was. After the war effort that ended at Finland's defensive victory the Soviet military command, weakened by Stalin's purge, came under severe criticism. For instance the air force operations were judged as failures. In spite of their thirty times higher numbers, the 44,000 bomber sorties of the Soviet Air Force could not paralyze the Finnish warfare capability or collapse its economy. The war ordeal only strengthened the people's morale.
Hence the Russian Airforce had so been purge where the pilot base skill level was very low.Those returning pilots from the Spanish civil were also arrested and usually imprisoned, Stalin was a funny bloke. That said Staga you ready for what I’ve found ok here is just a small bit.
             Polikarpov I-15             Belgian Fiat CR.42.

There was lots more but I hate long posts.

Five Fiat CR.42s took off from Brustem at 06:05 to provide cover for the airfield. The first patrol (Lieutenant Charles Goffin and Sergent Delannay) tangled with some Bfl09s east of Waremme. Delannay's aircraft was shot down. He baled out and as he descended was mortally wounded by a shot from the ground. Goffin had better luck and damaged a Bf109, which left the fray trailing a long plume of smoke. This plane appears to have been a Bf109E flown by Leutnant Erwin Dutel from 2/JG1, whose aircraft was hit and he was forced to bale out over Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen). Dutel had been a part of nineteen Bfl09s escorting forty Ju52s in the St Trond/Tongres. The German fighter pilots repored that they encountered five "Gladiators" of which one was shot down.

During the Winter War Avdeyev served in the Leningrad area in the 153 IAP as a Lieutenant and was later promoted to Starshiy Leitenant and Flight commander.
After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the 153 IAP defended Leningrad City using I-153 Tchaika biplanes.
One day his flight attacked a formation of Ju88s protected by Bf109s (approx. 20 aircraft altogether). He shot down one of the bombers in flames but his aircraft was damaged by return fire and caught fire. He continued however to attack and shot down another bomber before he bailed out and parachuted to safety.

Jean de Callatay served with the 3/II/2 Aé equipped with Fiat CR.42 at the time of the German invasion of Belgium in May 1940.
In the early morning on 10 May the IIème Group was ordered to evacuated from Nivelles to Landing Field No 22 at Brustem.
When the last aircraft were preparing to land, the flight led by Capitaine Callatay spotted a formation of Ju52/3ms over Tongres. The transports were from 17/KGzbV5 tasked with dropping dummy parachutists. The three CR.42s took on the Ju52s and Callatay scored hits on a Ju52 near Alken at 05.30. This aircraft crash-landed at Maastricht. The Belgian pilot were immediately pounced on by escorting Bf109s from I/JG1 and the three Belgian pilots broke off the engagement and headed back to Nivelles thinking that the field at Brustem had been put out of action by German bombers.
Callatay was later credited with a destroyed Ju52/3m.
On 14 May he claimed a Bf109E of 8/JG3 over Fleurus at around 13.00.
Callatay ended the war with two biplane victories.

Here is a list of the Russian biplane pilots

Alexei Khlobystov - 1 biplane victory / 7 total
Nikolai Lavitskii - at least 1 biplane victory / 24 total
Mikhail Mudrov - 1 biplane victory / 30 total
Alexandr Silantyev - 1 biplane victory / 8 total
Ivan Grachev - 1 shared biplane victory / 18 total
Colonel Fedor Arkhipenko, 129 GvIAP, 30 and 14 shared victories.
Colonel Andrey Baklan, 32 GvIAP, 22 and 23 shared victories.
Colonel Ivan Baluk, 54 GvIAP, 25 and 5 shared victories.
Major Vladimir Chensky, 116 GvIAP, 16 victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Lieutenant Colonel Nikolay Delegey, 508 IAP, 15 and 3 shared victories.
Major Nikolay Dmitriev, 5 GvIAP, 15 victories.
Lieutenant Konstantin Kiranov, 875 IAP, 16 victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Captain Sergey Kiselev, 162 IAP, 16 victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Colonel Peter Kolomin, 162 IAP, 16 and 7 shared victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Lieutenant Pavel Lovchikov, 271 IAP, 15 (4 of them in the Winter War) victories.
Colonel Vasiliy Matzievich, 26 GvIAP, 16 and 6 shared victories.
General Sergey Mironov, 153 IAP, 18 (2 of them in the Winter War) victories.
Colonel Aleksey Murashev, 3 GvIAP, 22 victories.
Captain Viktor Orlov, 113 GvIAP, 16 and 6 shared victories.
Captain Dmitriy Oskalenko, 26 IAP/PVO, 15 victories (KIA in combat with JG 54 on 26 September 1942).
Major Ivan Pishkan, 91 IAP, 16 and 35 shared victories.
Colonel Vladimir Snesarev, 11 GvIAP/SF, 16 and 8 victories shared victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).

Additional pilots with biplane victories:
S. Ya. Zchukovskiy - 4 biplane victories / 4 total
Aleksey Artamov - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
Mikhail Maksimov - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
V. Makutin - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
Peter Samokhin - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
B. N. Surin - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
A. A. Artemyev - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
L. G. Butelin - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
I. I. Drozdov - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Leonid Ivanov - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
P. A. Kuzmin - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
M. F. Savtchenko - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Zavgorodniy - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
K. Zcherdev - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Pavel Borisov - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Nikifor Ignatyev - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Alexandr Korobitzin - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
A. I. Pachin - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Lavrentiy Borisov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Nikolai Cherkasov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Alexandr Evstigneev - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Filimonov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Shota Gogmachadze - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Leonid Khomutov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Vasiliy Kuroedov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Dmitry Semenikhin - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total

A number of other Belgian pilots scored biplane kills during the German invasion in May 1940.

Jean de Callatay - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Charles Goffin - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Etienne Dufossez - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Werner de Mérode - 1 biplane victory / 1 total

Sources:
Christer Bergström's forthcoming book on the air war on the East front, 'Black Cross Red Star; German and Russian Fighter Pilots in Combat'

That's a helluva of alot of sorties wouldn't you say,not to mention the kills scored against 109's pretty impressive.  

Facts are facts and the German lost BOB,the team with the more skillfull players won end of story.Make all the excuses you want RAM.

Frankly I don't know how anyone can idolize any persons connected to the Nazi regime. These feelings come from losing relatives in the fight against the Nazis to preserve WORLD democracy.They gave up their tomorrows Ram so you are able to post here today,instead of being in some Nazi interment camp somewhere pondering your future. Then again that depends on what country your are from.

Man I'm tired  



[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-27-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Facts are facts and the German lost BOB,the team with the more skillfull players won end of story.Make all the excuses you want RAM.

The German team played with inadequate players and continuous tactical disadvantage. Start a soccer match between F.C. Barcelona and a second division soccer team with a 0-5 score favoring the second. Who will win?...nothing to do with the "best skilled" but with the "best advantage". Radar, english channel and inadecuate german planes gave that advantage to british.
And they still RAF was on the edge of losing the battle.


 

Frankly I don't know how anyone can idolize any persons connected to the Nazi regime. These feelings come from losing relatives in the fight against the Nazis to preserve WORLD democracy.They gave up their tomorrows Ram so you are able to post here today,instead of being in some Nazi interment camp somewhere pondering your future. Then again that depends on what country your are from

Spanish, with one Grandparent "dissapeared" bacause "political disidence"with Franco's fascist regime when my mother and uncles were only tiny little kids and my grandma was 23 year old. And that in a country burnt after a civil war.

 dont try that way torque, I exploded in flames once and I dont want to do it again.

Many LW flyiers were deeply anti-nazi.
Many LW flyiers (Rudel between them) were convinced nazi party members.
But hey were skillful and I admire that skill. If some of them were nazi pigs I dont like that, but I still admire their acts.

BTW I DO admire allied pilots too. But it happens that the one fighting agaisnt the odds,knowing there was only defeat at the end were German ones. And they kept on dying defending their country. Not the diddlying nazi party.

I admire that kind of bravery-and so I admire that kind of pilots.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Staga]

 

Originally posted by Torque:
Frankly I don't know how anyone can idolize any persons connected to the Nazi regime. These feelings come from losing relatives in the fight against the Nazis to preserve WORLD democracy.They gave up their tomorrows Ram so you are able to post here today,instead of being in some Nazi interment camp somewhere pondering your future. Then again that depends on what country your are from.

Same here Torque... Just change that Nazi-word to Commie...

I can't understand people who "Idolize" russians in ww2... After all they attacked Finland (David and Goljat huh?)
My grand parents live'd in Viipuri in Karelian isthmus in their own piece of land.
Also some of my relatives are still there...
6 feet under.

Only true reason why Finland joined with Germany was because other western countries didn't send help or warfare(but Sweden). At that time Germany was only country who could sell panzers, food and other "goodies".
I know in States and britannia there were some general money-rising campaigns for Finland and thank G for it... Better something than nothing.
I'm so f%&&¤ing happy I can live in a free country what those Commies couldn't get ever occupied. They could only rape our country economical but thats another story.

   

Staga

[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Staga]

Sorry Lefto we "Hi-Jacked" your topic    

Staga

(I feel sorry because most of "Red Army" soldiers didn't ever know why they attacked Finland.
Specially sorry for those 23000 men who died in "Raatteen tie" near Suomussalmi. Those divisions came from Ukraine and in "good 'ole CCCP" not even their museums "remember" to mention those men...)

Some pics from "road to Raate"
 http://www.lukio.palkane.fi/raate/raate.html

If you are interested about "Winter War" check this link.
 http://www.winterwar.com/Mainpage.htm

[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-27-2000).]