P-38 wing loading?

[Virage]

Sorry if I'm opening an old wound here, but this question has been on my mind for a while.

How can the P-38 turn so well with a high wing loading of 53 lbs/sq ft. ?

[wells]

A few main reasons.

1.  More propwash over the wing surface = higher effective airspeed = more lift

2.  Higher lift coefficient before stalling (also part of the reason it suffers worse compressibility)

3.  Higher aspect ratio = less induced drag = faster turning speed = faster turning rate

[FLS]

The 53lbs/sq ft wing load is for the 17,500 lb gross weight. The P-38L turns better when less fuel is carried to reduce the wing loading. It could be more like 46 lbs/sq ft with light fuel and ammo if I did the math right.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[batdog]

Dont forget the use of fowler flaps...they provide a better lift to drag ratio than the typical flap seen on most ww2 planes.


xBAT

[Tac]

Because its beautiful.

[J_A_B]

Unlike most fighter flaps, the flaps on the P-38 actually add wing area.  A P-38 will NOT turn very well without using its flaps.   This makes it a bit tougher to fly a P-38 in AH because the flaps auto-retract if you get a little too fast.   Also, a P-38 pilot could cut the throttle on his inboard engine in a turn and this will make the plane turn tighter still.  There are some maneuvers a P-38 can do that supposedly "more maneuverable" planes like the Spit 9 simply can't follow.

The reason the P-38 doesn't always do so well in AH, I suspect, is most the people flying it fly it like other fighters and don't mess with the flaps and engine too much.  This would cause the P-38 to lose many of its advantages.

J_A_B

[Tac]

"There are some maneuvers a P-38 can do that supposedly "more maneuverable" planes like the Spit 9 simply can't follow"

Eh? Id love to know ONE

[BigCrate]

hehehehe wish AH 38 had the AW gas mileage. I could load a 38 with 20% gas and  that be all I need for a 4 or 5 kill hop. Ahhh the glory days of AW

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

[DmdNexus]

Tac,

38's do inverted flat spins the best.

DmdNexus

[OLtos]

Hi,

I have no idea what the math is, but the stories I have read of it from two sources, (Martin Caiden's "Fork Tailed Devil" and Francis Dean's "America's Hundred Thousand" pretty much agree that it was very manueverablie in real life.  For all I have have heard Robert Johnson criticized for stretching of the truth, in his book, written with Martin Caiden, called "Thunderbolt" he describes a scene where he watched a BF109 on the tail of a P-38 lose it in a turn, snaproll and auger in.

My problem with the AH version is that this P-38 snaprolls in low speed turns way too easy.  Supposedly snap rolling at low speed is caused primarily by propellor torque, but the P-38L as zero net torque.  So where are these viscious snap rolls coming from?

I know the story of Tommy McQuire and all. How we got in trouble and augered making a slow tight turn, but the J's that he was flying had problems with the turbo charger regulators that caused the engines to hiccup.  At low speeds this is like a momentary engine failure and in a tight turn could cause the snap roll that supposedly killed him.  But, the real cause of his death is still more or less speculation.

Still,  P-38s should not snap roll this badly in slow tight turns.  The 38 should be far less prone to this than any single engine fighter, especially the really high powered jobs from late in the war.

[Tac]

oltos, ive found that 90% of my snap rolls are caused by the MF flaps auto-retracting the instant they hit a certain speed. In very slow, full flap out fight, when the 38 is almost at 70mph or so and turning  with nose above horizon, and you manage to stallfight the con into making HIM nose down and level before he augers, point nose to him to get a snapshot... you stop turning, your engines speed you up to about 140 or 150.. flap retracts,WHAM  you snap-roll/enter into an instant spin. Same thing happens on long-loop fights, flaps just TOUCH the 250mph mark, retract, WHAM, snap roll.. you lose the fight thanks to a feature the real 38 never had.

Flaps should NOT retract at all. Make them rip out if one exceeds 320mph with them deployed, but not this flap equivalent of a castration. For a plane that relies on its flaps, this autoretract thingy is the *SNIP* at the apple.

[Ossie]

I know the story of Tommy McQuire and all. How we got in trouble and augered making a slow tight turn, but the J's that he was flying had problems with the turbo charger regulators that caused the engines to hiccup. At low speeds this is like a momentary engine failure and in a tight turn could cause the snap roll that supposedly killed him. But, the real cause of his death is still more or less speculation.

Not to mention he still had his droptanks.
As well, the 38's counter-rotating props took care of torque, but I would imagine that would change if the pilot were to apply throttle differently to each engine.

[akak]

Originally posted by Tac
"There are some maneuvers a P-38 can do that supposedly "more maneuverable" planes like the Spit 9 simply can't follow"

Eh? Id love to know ONE

Lowell's Cloverleaf maneuver.  The Spitfire XI driver had to buy a case of beer when he lost the mock duel to Lowell and his P-38L.


Ack-Ack

[BigCrate]

Ahhhh the clover leaf turn

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

[Tac]

Cloverleaf wont work vs AH spit. It does work against 109's and others, but not against the spit. Why? Spit can keep turning hard and constantly until very low speeds, almost as low as the 38. The AH torque is almost nonexistant in all planes except the 109 and 190 & 152s.