Unperk the Ta-152

[AKSWulfe]

Okay Urchin, you want reasonable explanations? Well here ya go:

"a) rarity b) low production numbers, c) apparently if used too much (although only used on one aircraft that the same people arguing to unperk the Ta-152 argued to get perked), and d) untouchability."

Imagine that, all I had to do was cut n paste it. You leave it free, and more people will inevitably fly it but that in turn means that you'll have more of them. The more you have the higher the fights go. THe higher the fights go, the more the Ta-152 comes into it's realm. In the end, you have an arena with Ta-152s all over.

Keep it perked, keep it rare.
-SW

[Urchin]

Okay Urchin, you want reasonable explanations? Well here ya go:
"a) rarity b) low production numbers, c) apparently if used too much (although only used on one aircraft that the same people arguing to unperk the Ta-152 argued to get perked), and d) untouchability."

This part is garbage.  "Rarity" and "Low production numbers" are synonymous unless I'm mistaken, plus both of those are entirely subjective.  Overuse COULD be a criteria, and probably was in the perking of the C-Hog (which by the way, also meets 1&2 on your "list"- at least by MY definition).  Untouchability- again, entirely subjective.  I've flown it a bit this tour, I was "touched" quite easily when making attacks on buffs at 30k (and below).  I guess I'm curious as to why people think the C-Hog should NOT be perked, when it is clearly a superior plane in the MA, but that the Ta-152 should be perked into extinction.

Imagine that, all I had to do was cut n paste it. You leave it free, and more people will inevitably fly it but that in turn means that you'll have more of them. The more you have the higher the fights go. THe higher the fights go, the more the Ta-152 comes into it's realm. In the end, you have an arena with Ta-152s all over.

This is actually an interesting argument.  I suppose that it could happen that way, although I doubt it for the following reasons.  Vulching is predominate in the MA- and to vulch you have to get low.  Over bases, the action will be under 10k practically all the time.  If you are being vulched, you want a plane that performs well at low level.  Even when the focus is on taking a base and not vulching, you still have to get low to take out the acks, etc.  The goons that take bases fly low (NOE).  The people that HUNT goons fly low (do you have any idea how hard it is to get from 30k down to sealevel in time to stop a goon?).  So I think it is more likely that even if the Ta-152 is unperked, you may see the kills per tour go up to 1000 or so (which may be optimistic).  The arena will NEVER "be full of Ta-152s".

Keep it perked, keep it rare.

Opinions are like amazinhunks bud- everyones got one.  The problem is that in your case you are backing your opinion with "just cuz" as a reason (although the little story of Ta-152s taking over the arena is imaginitive, if not plausible), whereas I am putting forth a little effort.

-SW
 

Edit- Actually, I just thought of something else.  Shouldn't you #3 reason "apparently if they see to much use (but only if the Luftwhiners whine about it, yadda yadda) cut both ways.  In case you missed it, the TA-152 sees less use than the C.202.  The C-47 had more kills than the TA-152 did last tour.  Yes, an unarmed transport plane managed to kill more enemy planes than the Ta-152 did.  So apparently, in my opinion, the Ta-152 isn't seeing ENOUGH use.  On the other hand, the F4U-1C, which was also RARE in WW2, is perked at 8 points, and sees more use than any German plane other than the 109G10.

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[AKSWulfe]

What effort? The only effort you put forth is "just because"..

Because not enough people fly it? Oh well, guess they just don't care for it.

Because you got killed too many times in it? Well I know where the mistake is with this one.. and it the mistake lies in how you fly it.

Because it has poor low alt performance? So does the D-9.. does this mean would should up it's ENY value to 40 so it can get as many points for kills as a 109F4? Don't think so.

Because you want it free so every time you die in it you don't lose points? Ahhhh! That's probably it.

You're right, everyone has opinions. You asked what the criteria is for perking...

a) overuse b) plane's impact on arena c) real world production/combat numbers and d) rarity.

Yes rarity and low production numbers are two different things. You can have low production numbers, but if it's a front line fighter.. well then it ain't too rare, now is it? If it's held behidn the lines for defense of ze fatherland, then no doubt it will be rare.

The second you stepped onto that high pedastal touting your LuftWhiner drivel, that's the second I thought "What a dumb ass."

Next time you decide to get on that high horse and go off on some wild tangent that because ONE plane out of _NINE_ "LuftWaffe" fighters is perked and isn't being used as much as you think it should be, you just remember you are _THE_ poster child for the LuftWhiners.


S! Herr KapitanOfZeLuftVinerKorp von LimpWristedHasselhoff
-SW

[Kieran]

Urchin-

Your argument revolves around your not being able to fly the plane ahistorically without cost. You want to be able to take that big-cannoned, high-alt bird to sea level and vultch. You say you wanted more birds to fly, yet seem to want to fly only the 152. hose seem to be the high points.

The comparisons to other aircraft don't mean much, because you keep comparing them out of the context of where the Ta152 was designed to excel. Of course the other craft do things better at lower alts.

[Urchin]

LOL- Swolfe.  You can make me laugh, even if that isn't quite what you intended.  You must be quite a mouse in real life, to have all this anger you must let out on the BBS.

 

Because not enough people fly it? Oh well, guess they just don't care for it.

Or could that be because the perk cost is to high?

 

Because you got killed too many times in it? Well I know where the mistake is with this one.. and it the mistake lies in how you fly it.

 

I was SHOT DOWN 3 times in it.


 

Because it has poor low alt performance? So does the D-9.. does this mean would should up it's ENY value to 40 so it can get as many points for kills as a 109F4? Don't think so.

 

The Ta-152 makes the D-9 look like a thoroughbred at low alt.  No, I don't think the D-9s ENY value should be 40- I actually think the ENY value on it is ok.  I DO think the 109F4's ENY value should be raised from 40, or the 109G2's lowered, because it is easier to get kills in the G2.  But since that is just "Luftwhiner drivel" I guess you don't care.

 

Because you want it free so every time you die in it you don't lose points? Ahhhh! That's probably it.

 

Actually, thats not a bad idea.  However, I said I want the perk value LOWERED, not ELIMINATED.  I understand how you might have missed that, the red haze you get in your eyes every time someone makes a SUGGESTION about the German planes must make it hard to see.

 

The second you stepped onto that high pedastal touting your LuftWhiner drivel, that's the second I thought "What a dumb ass."

 

Well, I don't recall stepping on a pedestal, but it is nice to know we hold the same opinion of eachother anyway.

 

Next time you decide to get on that high horse and go off on some wild tangent that because ONE plane out of _NINE_ "LuftWaffe" fighters is perked and isn't being used as much as you think it should be, you just remember you are _THE_ poster child for the LuftWhiners.

 

LOL- this is actually what made me laugh.  Why do you think I give a toejam how you see me?  By the way, I guess AKDejavu is the Crown Prince of the "Luftwhiners" since he actually agrees that the Ta152's perk cost needs to be lowered.  Or wait, was that Creamo?  Maybe it was Frenchy?  Maybe it was Seeker, or Pug666 or Zigrat?  I have news for you "friend"- there are a lot more people than me that think this _ONE_ Fighter out of _NINE_ isn't seeing enough use.

 

S! Herr KapitanOfZeLuftVinerKorp von LimpWristedHasselhoff
 

<S> General Mc'ClosemindedOpenMouthedShitForBrainsMoron.

Not as "creative" as your title, put I think it gets my OPINION of you across OK.

[Urchin]

Urchin-
Your argument revolves around your not being able to fly the plane ahistorically without cost. You want to be able to take that big-cannoned, high-alt bird to sea level and vultch. You say you wanted more birds to fly, yet seem to want to fly only the 152. hose seem to be the high points.

The comparisons to other aircraft don't mean much, because you keep comparing them out of the context of where the Ta152 was designed to excel. Of course the other craft do things better at lower alts.

 

Kieran- people fly all the planes in this game "ahistorically without cost".  The P51, P47, and P38 were DESIGNED to fly at high altitudes as well.

As far as the "vulching" part goes- this is where I really wish HTC could break the kills up into A2A kills vs. A2G kills.  I don't as a general rule (there are exceptions) take part in a Vulch.  I generally have better things to do with my time.  I fly CAP over the base, escort the goon in, etc.  I do partake on occasion though, and I mainly do it in the 190A8.  The 109s are just to frail to get low and slow over a field, and the 190A5 and D9 don't have the guns and ammo load for it, in my opinion.  What I'd like to do with the Ta-152 is fight in it.  As it stands now, you can "fly it right" (as a WW2 SR-71), or you can go down where everyone else is and fight in it.  I don't think a perk value of 40 points is justified for a plane that is so out of its element below 15k.  You have another opinion, and I can actually respect that.

As far as "variety" goes- I'm not going to look up the definition.  I have a pretty good idea of what the word means.  You seem to think that if I want variety I should fly every plane in the arena.  I'll post my stats from last tour here, in case you do't know how to get them.  OK, that didn't work so well.  Go look up my stats for tour 18 (go to scores, then expanded format, and type in Urchin).  I actually do get into quite a few different rides.  What I'd like to see (and what I consider "variety") is one the level of the arena.  Mainly, you are going to see N1K2, Spit, La7, P51, and then other assorted planes.  Thats not a bad thing, just boring for me.  I like to fly a different plane than everyone else is flying.  As it stands now, the Ta-152 sees next to no use in the MA, and I think that is a shame.  I think the reason it sees next to no use is because the perk points you are "risking" by flying it are not balanced out by the "reward" you get by flying it.  For the Tempest, I think that they are (although that could also stand to be lower a bit I think).  For the C-Hog, they definately are.  Since you obviously can't make the Ta-152 more "rewarding" to fly in the MA, if you want to see more of them you have to make it less "risky".  Most people are for lowering the perk value of the Ta-152 (with the exception of SWulfe, who is apparently rabidly against it).  You don't seem to be, and thats fine.  I'm just making my case for lowering the perk cost, thats all.  I'm not trying to fill the arena with Ta-152's, or make everyone march in step and sing German war songs.

[AKSWulfe]

Angry? Funny.. I'm merely pointing out that you are not only wrong but you don't understand the point of the perk system.

40 points is about where it should be. Okay, maybe 35.. either way it's supposed to be rare.

The F4U-1C was perked because of arena wide use. Not because of it's performance.. or was it? Or was it's guns? Hell I forgot, I read so many 'reasons' that I'm confused as to what the ultimate reason for perking it was.

In case you haven't caught on yet, the Ta-152 was a last ditch effort to keep high alt bombers away from Berlin (B-29)...

How many kills did the Ta-152 get in the war? I'm curious...

How many were made and in an operational squad?

You want the price lowered because you screwed up too many times and lost too many points.. that in itself is a joke.
-SW

[Urchin]

Well, now is when it gets interesting for me.  The F4U-1C saw combat in the PTO.  As far as I know only 200 were made, and only one squadron flew them.  Unless I'm mistaken, I also seem to recall that the squadron made 70 something kills in the plane.  

So, why was it REALLY perked?  Was it because it was rare?  200 planes is by no means common, and the plane only saw action in one battle as far as I know.  Low production numbers?  Again, 200 planes is by no means a lot of planes, so I guess THAT could be the reason it was perked.  Or was it overuse in the arena?  I know for a few tours the F4U-1C had close to 40,000 kills in the arena.  Yea, that could be the reason to.  I doubt it was because of it's performance (or "untouchability" as you put it), since the F4U-1D is the same plane and it has yet to see a 1 to 1 K/D as far as I know.  That brings up the issue of the guns- since the only difference is the there, and the F4U-1C maintains a K/D of around 2 to 1 since it has been perked (as an aside, the F4U-1C has always had a higher K/D than the Ta-152 since it has been perked).

So, I'll ask this question again.  Whats the rationale behind taking a plane that was produced in low numbers, saw action in one battle, and is quite clearly a good plane under MA circumstances and (originally making it NO cost) perking it at 8 points- then taking a different plane that was produced in low numbers, also saw action under limited circumstances, and clearly does NOT perform well under typical MA circumstances, and (originally making it 60 points I believe) perking it at 40 points?

Please explain that to me, if you could, since you clearly have a much better understanding of the perk system than I do.

By the way, I'll try to look up the number of kills made in Ta-152's, but I'm not sure how easy it will be.  I do know that no German squadron fielded Ta-152's exclusively, they were normally fielded alongside 190D9's.  As near as I can tell, somewhere around 150 Ta-152Hs were produced.  How many saw combat is another question entirely.

And Swulfe- your idea that I want the price lowered because I "screwed up to many times and lost to many points" is actually laughable.  I've given many reasons for wanting the perk value lowered.  Your attempt at "reverse psychology" to uncover my "real" motive is stupid to say the least.

EDIT- my claim above ws not true.  The Ta-152 had a better K/D in tour 16 than the F4U-1c, after than it has been lower.

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[AKSWulfe]

I give up, this is pointless.

I could argue sanely, intelligently, and calmly all day long as to why the Ta-152 should remain perked at it's current cost.

You will insist it's because people are out to get the "LuftWaffe" out of the game...

Hey man.. whatever gets you what you want, right?

Reminds me of a little boy crashing to the ground with arms and legs flailing about while tears stream from his face yelling "It's not fair!! It's not fair!!!"
-SW

[Urchin]

I beg to differ... Just about all of my posts are "sane, intelligent, and calm".  Granted, I do lose my temper on occasion, but that happens to everyone.  However, I do agree that this is indeed pointless.  I will never be able to convince you that the Ta-152 would not take over the arena if the perk cost was lowered.  However, I would like to see a response to my question above, especially from an expert on the perk system such as yourself.  Who knows, you may be able to convince the "poster child of the Luftwhiners" that you are actually right.

Oh, and by the way- the tone of more than a few of your posts might also fit in with your image of

   

 a little boy crashing to the ground with arms and legs flailing about while tears stream from his face yelling "It's not fair!! It's not fair!!!"
-SW

 

Actually- the above isnt quite true.  I actually think that your posts (especially here) are more in the vein of a parent that is unable to give a GOOD reason for not allowing a child to do something, and so resorts to the time honored "Because I said so".  I know I experienced this as a teen, and it infuriated me then as much as the attitude irritates me now as an adult.


LOL- and as a last edit.  


[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
 

I could argue sanely, intelligently, and calmly all day long as to why the Ta-152 should remain perked at it's current cost.

 

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the setup of a debate.  One party makes a statement, the other party attempts to refute it.  The original party then attempts to refute the second parties statement.  Your idea is more along the lines of something out of elementary school, with the dialogue of

Urchin- I think the Ta-152 needs to have its perk value looked at.  I cannot see a reason to keep the value at 40 points.  <offers some evidence to support position>

SW- I think you are wrong. <offers some evidence to support HIS position>

Urchin- No, I still think I am right <attempts to refute SW's evidence by comparing it to his own>

SW- YOU ARE A DAMN DOODY HEAD !  YOU BETTER SHUT UP BEFORE I BEAT YOU UP!  YOU ALWAYS THINK YOU ARE SOOO COOL AND BETTER THAN ME!  MY DADDY CAN BEAT UP YOUR DADDY!!

Urchin-      

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[AKSWulfe]

I've never complained about any plane in the game, except for the F4U-1C for the first couple weeks I was here. I learned to counter it and I was strongly opposed to the perking of the F4U-1C.

I do NOT complain about how other people fly, what plane they fly, how the planes fly, how the guns are modelled, how the game works.. I only call out those that do complain, incessantly at that, about things that will be fixed but it will take some time.

I gave you several reasons for the criteria of the perk system: a) real life rarity, b) real life production runs, c) in game performance, d) untouchability, e) firepower and last but not least f) impact on the game.

The point of the perk system is to keep people from being untouchable, while also allowing people to fly the planes.

2x 20mm and 1x30mm, a great top speed to boot, awesome energy retaining ability with those huge glider wings, and amazing dive ability. These coupled together make it a great machine.. oh and it's visibility too.

You keep reducing the price down to, what was it- 3 points proposed?!, and you'll see guys jumping in it because they can recklessly fly around.

As far as the 150built.. I believe only 70 of them only ever had power plants installed and were prepped for flight. That makes it have less planes capable of flight than the F4U-1C.
-SW

[AKDejaVu]

If the 152 is unperked, it will not dominate the arena for one reason: it is LW.

That does not mean it isn't capable of dominating all non-perked aircraft.  This plane is capable of being untouchable, so I support perking it.

I do believe the perk cost should be reduced to below 20 points though, simply because nobody is flying it anymore.

AKDejaVu

[Urchin]

 I gave you several reasons for the criteria of the perk system: a) real life rarity, b) real life production runs, c) in game performance, d) untouchability, e) firepower and last but not least f) impact on the game.

And I attempted to respond to each of those, and did so satisfactorily in my mind.  I'm not going to do it again 5 posts down from where I did it last time.  Do you have any NEW arguments?  Or will you deign to answer some of my counter arguments?

 

You keep reducing the price down to, what was it- 3 points proposed?!, and you'll see guys jumping in it because they can recklessly fly around.

No, I think a good price for the Ta-152 would be between 6 and 10 points.  In other words, put it on par with the F4U-1C, because in my opinion in matches the "historical" reasons for being perked and can't even come close to the "in game" reasons.

 

As far as the 150built.. I believe only 70 of them only ever had power plants installed and were prepped for flight. That makes it have less planes capable of flight than the F4U-1C.
-SW

 

As far as I know- the 150 Ta-152H's that were built included engines.  I don't know if they all saw combat, but I do think they were all READY for combat.  And sure, I never argued that the Germans had MORE Ta-152's flying than the Americans had F4U-1C's- I am saying that if the reason the Ta-152 costs 40 points is because only 150 were produced, the price of the F4U-1C should be significantly higher than it is.

[Hooligan]

Urchin:

Here is some information about the Ta-152-H1.  

This is from memory so the figures are not exact and I didn't do the research but here goes:

Vermillion, Funkedup and some others did some research on the Ta-152.  Somewhat over 100 (150?) of the "operational" versions were produced.  Of these they were able to track by serial number what happened to each aircraft.  The majority were destroyed before they had the opportunity to fly combat sorties (by enemy action at the factory, or at a friendly airfield, or in accidents etc...).  After the serial number accounting was done it turns out that less than 20 (I don't remember the exact number) of the Ta-152s were not destroyed before they had the opportunity to fly combat sorties.  So something like 19 (maximum) Ta-152s MIGHT have flown combat sorties.  It was not determined for certain how many Ta-152s flew combat sorties or how many were flown but both numbers are undoubtedly very small.

This topic has been extensively researched and discussed on this BBS.  If the search function worked properly I would point you to the appropriate threads, but sadly I can't  .

When HTC first introduced the perk system I recall them advertising it as a method to introduce rare/exotic or unbalancing aircraft into the MA on a very limited basis.  The decision to perk the C-hog came later and appears strictly to have been to limit availability of an "overused" aircraft.

HTC perks aircraft for a variety of reasons, not just performance.  Perk costs and reasons for perking or not-perking will change over time.  The bottom line is probably that HTC will use the perk system as a tool to make the MA "a better place".  Obviously HTC wants more and happier customers and their definition of "a better place" to achieve this is entirely up to them.

Perhaps HTC doesn't ever want to see Ta-152s be anything but very rare in the MA.  Since less than 20 flew combat sorties, this makes a perfectly reasonable rational for keeping them expensively perked.

Hooligan

[AKSWulfe]

First of all, you are comparing it to the F4U-1C.

Two veryh different planes, from two very different technological years with two very different duties.

You are using the same ol' tired arguments again and again in this thread: "someone shot me down because it's performance is poor at low altitude", "the F4U-1C is better but costs less.. why?", "people are trying to drive the LuftWaffe out of the game" (you don't believe you typed that? I can show you!) and other non-sensical babble.

6-10 points?!?! Sure, make the Tempest right around 2 points then.. I mean it wasn't nearly as rare as the F4U-1C or Ta-152, but it's priced way higher than both of them!
-SW