Author Topic: Could the Spit MkI, Hurri I, Hurri IIc, Tiffie Ib and Tempest really fire half guns? (Read 2481 times)

Karnak · « **on:** March 14, 2002, 08:53:17 PM »

Could the Spit MkI, Hurri I, Hurri IIc, Tiffie Ib and Tempest really fire half of their guns?

I have never read anything that indicated that Spit Is or Hurri Is could select only 4 guns. I know that cannon armed Spits could fire cannons, MGs or cannons + MGs, but have never heard of RAF aircraft with homogenous armaments being able to fire anything other than all guns at once.

Does anybody have any info on this?

J_A_B · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2002, 09:04:10 PM »

The RAF planes aren't the only ones in AH with a wierd trigger setup. Quite a few planes that historically had only a single trigger can fire their weapons independently in AH. Others, like the 190's, have the wrong guns linked.

IMO this is sort of like the cockpits and ammo counters and flaps and ground handling model---sort of generic for all the planes because it's easier and more convienient. I can't really see any advantage for a Spit 1 to fire just 4 of its guns; likewise in the P-51D I have my guns mapped to fire all of 'em when I pull the trigger anyway.

J_A_B

Karnak · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2002, 10:40:00 PM »

J_A_B,

That is true of the aircraft that are armed only with machine guns, but aircraft with a cannon only armament do get an advantage out of it.

The Tiffie, Hurri IIc and Tempest can double their ammo duration while retaining enough firepower to be effective by only firing 2 guns at once.

If they couldn't do that it reality, I don't think they should have that advantage in AH.

I don't know if they could or couldn't, that is why I started this thread.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #3 on:** March 15, 2002, 01:05:35 AM »

I dont know why some planes can fire the cannons seperately while others cant.

The worst example of this is the FW190. It could fire all weapons independantly or linked. The 190A8 is most hurt by this because of its 30mm cannon not matching the 20mm and 13mm trajectory. It could be fired alone in RL. In AH it can only fire all cannon together.

This could use a nice fix in the next version likely due out Jan 2003..

(Sorry HTC but the 1.09 wait was pure torture.)

J_A_B · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2002, 01:38:35 AM »

Speaking of 190's.....

Dunno if you have this already, but can't hurt. Hope this thing works right (J_A_B crosses his fingers). If it works size is greatly reduced from base image.

fdiron · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2002, 02:48:41 AM »

I know for a fact that the F4f could select to either fire 2 guns, 4 guns, or all 6 guns. I know we dont have f4f in AH, but it shows that a plane with homogenous armament could select with gun banks to fire.

Vermillion · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2002, 08:20:43 AM »

Grunherz wrote:

Quote

The worst example of this is the FW190. It could fire all weapons independantly or linked. The 190A8 is most hurt by this because of its 30mm cannon not matching the 20mm and 13mm trajectory. It could be fired alone in RL. In AH it can only fire all cannon together.

For about the 30th time, this is not true.

The Fw190A8 had two firing circuits and two firing buttons.

You could fire either
1.) cowl mounted guns + inner cannons
2.) outter cannons + gondolas

or 3.) All together by pressing both triggers.

So AH is actually doing you a favor.

Here is the firing circuit schematic from the pilots manual which explains it in detail.

http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-gun-circuit.jpg

I hope this doesn't hijack your thread Karnak

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2002, 09:13:55 AM »

Vermillion, IMO, your example is just one of the possible customizations. Probably, the most common one for the Sturm units using Mk108.

Do u have the data about 190A5? It uses the low cal MGs independently as a norm, same for previous 190A versions.

HoHun · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2002, 06:23:23 PM »

Hi Fdiron,

>I know for a fact that the F4f could select to either fire 2 guns, 4 guns, or all 6 guns.

It was possible to enable or disable any individual gun by manually locking its action using the arming/charging levers on both sides of the cockpit. It worked, but required some manual effort and wasn't instantaneous.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2002, 06:52:22 PM »

Hi Vermillion,

>The Fw190A8 had two firing circuits and two firing buttons.

The Fw 190A-8 used the KG 13B featuring three firing buttons: A-Knopf, B1-Knopf and B2-Knopf.

Willi Reschke in "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 'Wilde Sau'" describes quite clearly opening in with 13 mm, 20 mm and 30 mm calibre guns at different distances during a single gunnery pass, so there's evidence that the Sturmjäger as used operationally were not configured according to your manual.

In fact, the Luftwaffe - and especially the Jagdwaffe - didn't think too highly of standard procedures if they interfered with their personal ideas. Common wisdom of the time: "In der Luftwaffe gibt's nichts, was es nicht gibt".

Alfred Price' "Fw 190 in Combat" describes an instance of a Sturmjäger's guns not firing at all due to the pilot's ignorance of the customized weapon circuits. This shows the downside of ignoring standards, but it proves that weapons systems weren't always rigged by the book.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2002, 04:10:30 AM »

Vermillion:

For the 30th time I say to you what Ho Hun so kindly said for me.

They could be done pretty much any way.

Replicant · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2002, 04:50:03 AM »

Yep, I agree Karnak, and whatever this would apply to the other remaining aircraft in AH. I don't actually use one set of guns at a time so to me it would be advantagious to me because I'd only have to press one button and hence more stable on the 'ole joystick!

Nexx

SKurj · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2002, 10:35:07 AM »

Replicant....

Map your trigger to FIRE ALL..... then ya have a spare button

SKurj

Vermillion · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2002, 12:00:15 PM »

And I say to you Grunherz and Mandoble.

Prove it.

I have direct information (a detailed pilots manual) that I have posted here that says it does NOT work that way.

You may be right, but all I ask to see is some information that shows that. You should know that I'm always open to a good debate based upon the facts. But I haven't seen any evidence that the information I do have is flawed.

Thats all I ask.

I go to great efforts to find and share the data and information that I bring to this forum, so I honestly expect anyone else to share what they have with me.

HoHun · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2002, 05:00:02 PM »

Hi Vermillion,

>Prove it.

Price' book proves that the Luftwaffe's Sturmgruppen had specialized (and non-standard) gunnery circuits. Reschke's book proves that the Sturmgruppen fired the different calibres individually in combat.

>I have direct information (a detailed pilots manual) that I have posted here that says it does NOT work that way.

You have posted one standard configuration here that is not even Rüstsatz-specific. It also looks like your "pilot's manual" is in English, and as far as I've seen, it doesn't quote which original Luftwaffe documents (if any) were used as a source. The way Luftwaffe documents are organized, the complete description should be expected to be part of the "Flugzeughandbuch" ('Aircraft Manual', not pilot's manual) which actually consists of a series of individual booklets on the specific subsystems. The booklet on the barrel armament ("Schußwaffenanlage") would contain detailed and specific information on the standard configuration of each of the Rüstsätze instead of the generalized statements on the pages you posted.

In short, your "manual" can't be expected to provide a final answer to the question. Needless to say, discounting (or actually ignoring) the accounts of operational pilots isn't a good idea if all you have is an incomplete manual of undocumented origin.

It may be interesting and even fairly useful, but it has its limitations, and I'd suggest to try and stay aware of that.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)