109e-4..

[Kweassa]

Rolls like a ball of scotch tape on a sheep dog.

 ..

 Slow aileron responses and strains to the pilot over 300mphs are noted.. but shouldn't they at least be simular to Spit MkIs at 200~300mph??

 I'm not an expert, I Have no idea, and I am humbly asking for opinions and facts. I'm just a little bit bewildered and curious.

[tofri at work]

But did you notice its climb rate .

Like a G10 on steroids:D

[Wilbus]

Bellow is a quote from the 109 E3 pilot notes/RAF Evaluation of the 109 E3.

The 109 E is compared to a spitfire Mk1. Numbers bellow are from RAF test team early in the war after capturing an E3.

Maximum Sideways force average pilot can apply to stick:
109 E: 40
Spitfire Mk1: 60
 
Time to 45 degree bank at 400mph:
109 E: 4 seconds.
Spitfire Mk1: 4 seconds

Corresponding Aileron Displacement: 109 E: 1/5
Spitfire Mk1: 1/5

Kb2 at 400mph:
109 E: -0,145
Spitfire Mk1: -0,14

Wing Span Feet:
109 E: 32,4
Spitfire Mk1: 37,0

Aileron Type:
109 E: Slotted
Spitfire Mk1: Frise

% Balance (area ahead hinge/ total area):
109 E: 21,6
Spitfire Mk1: 27,5

Total Aileron Area/gross wing area:
109 E: 0,0655
Spitfire Mk1: 0,078

Max Stick travel in:
109 E: +/- 4
Spitfire Mk1: +/- 8

Max Ailerons Angles up in degrees:
109 E: 25
Spitfire Mk1: 25

Down:
109 E: 13,5
Spitfire Mk1: 19

 
Judging from this, the spit should most likely roll a bit better, and in high speed, it should be the same.
I don't know what everything means, such as Kb at 400mph? What's that? And max stick travel?

Also, judging from this, the 109 E should roll better, quite much better then it actually does. Another part of the RAF notes says one of the good things with the 109, was exelent manuverability at low speed, together with superb low speed handeling and a gentle stall enabled it to stick with Spitfire Mk1 (note, what RAF test pilots said).

[Starbird]

Read something, most likely here, that the 109 cockpit was very cramped.

The stick travel I would think would be how far you can move the stick from center. 8" in the spit and only 4" in the 109.

In the 109 you didn't have much room to leverage yourself. Which would explain why you could only get 40lbs of stick force at 400mph. You can't move your arms enough to force the stick over.

not sure what kb2 is referring to.

[Wilbus]

CC Starbird, think it is more then just 4 inches though, got some nice movies from 109's, cockpit movies (on VHS so can't post) that shows the stick being moved far more then that. You might very well be on to something though, anybody know for sure?

[Kweassa]

Let's assume the 'leverage' thingy is correct.

 That'd explain the super slug rolls at high speeds. Existing 109s prior 1.09 were always mediocre to bad in rolls. But what about at low speeds? Quite surprised to find out it rolls even worse than Typhoons before their roll rate was fixed. I don't expect it to roll like 109s do in IL-2 or something.. but isn't current roll rates a bit too extremely slow?? Anyone have data of RAF tests or something on 109Es rolling at low speeds??

[Karnak]

I have always read that the 109E out rolled the Spit I.

109s out rolled Spits until metal skinned alirons replaced the fabric alirons on the Spit early in Spit V production where after the Spit out rolled the 109.

The problem I see with Wilbus' chart is that it is a test at 400mph, where both aircraft really, really suck.

Below 300mph is where I am interested in.  Above 300 or 350 both the Spit I and 109E become too heavy to really fight in.

[Wilbus]

Yup, wish I had the low speed info. Only have "speach" about the low speed, will post it later.

[Angus]

English testpilot Jeffrey Quill was involved in improving the Roll-rate of the Spitfire. He tested a captured 109 and found out to his surprize that it rolled no better at all, and above 400 mph even worse, i.e. you could still roll the Spit slooooowwwwlyyy, but not move the 109 at all.
He also noted the rudder to become uneffective at hight speeds.

[niklas]

i just remember what someone said who i met 2 years ago. He said when he touched the rudder of the Emil in the exhibition of the german technical museum (what is actually forbidden to do), the aillerons moved too.

When this is true, and was a common feature on the emils, then it doesn´t suprise me that aillerons are stiff if you use only your hands, because you have also to move also the rudder.

I try to find out more about it in the future.

nik

[mora]

I dont know much about aerodynamics, but I really cant think of a reason why Emil should roll considerably worse than other 109's at slow speeds. Right now it rolls like a typhoon with one aileron. Maybe it's just a mistake like 4000 fpm climb rate?

[SKurj]

Rolls terribly... perhaps the worst rolling plane in the planeset at 250mph...
Even using the rudder doesn't appear to help much.

SKurj

[GRUNHERZ]

There is no reason it should roll worse than any other other 109 variant in AH, except if we got a K4 with flettner tabs.

Next patch HTC?