Why IS that CRAZY Ar234 Dogfighting??? I'll Tell You...

[MRPLUTO]

It's because it seems we'll have the Me-262 jet fighter available as a perk plane in 1.08.  So I thought I'd find out how difficult it will be to fight with a jet against fighters and bombers in the main arena.

The performance of the Ar234 probably isn't too much worse than the Me-262's.  I've stood in front of a 234 at the Air & Space Museum here in Washington, DC, and it's no bigger than a fighter.

The Ar234's engines were the same as the 262's.  The wingspan was about 6 ft. greater, length 5 ft. greater, max weight 3,000 lbs more (18,000 vs. 15,000 for 262).

Here's what I found:  If I never slowed below 350 mph and kept checking my 6, I was virtually impossible to hit.  Of course, at those speeds, hitting anything myself was rather difficult.  If someone jumped me, I just put the nose down and accelerated quickly to 500 mph.  Even a particularly fast prop plane can't manuver well enough at that speed to aim at a jet manuvering even very slightly.  And it won't be in range for long.

Another difficulty with the 262 will be fuel endurance.  In real life I believe it could only stay up about an hour.  So how long will  it be able to fly in the MA?  And of course landing the plane will take time and fuel at a nice quiet airbase, far away from marauding fighters.  So the time available for combat will be short.

I expect that the 262 will be useful as point defense against incoming buffs deep in friendly territory, but limited as a frontline fighter.  At least by anyone who wants to keep his perk points.

MRPLUTO, Captain, VMF-323, ~Death Rattlers~

[eskimo2]

I had 3 manuever kills in the 234 last tour.

 

It's a great dogfighter!

eskimo

[flakbait]

The Ar234's typical loaded weight is actually 18,540 lbs, while the 262 runs at 14,101 loaded. 4,400 pounds difference, so the 262 will maneuver MUCH better than the Arado. Not quite up to typical prop-fighter standards, but fairly good for an early jet. As for flight time, the 262 reportedly had about the same endurance as a 109. On one engine it could maintain 280-310mph (indicated) at 25,000 feet, and fly for just over 2 hours.

An interesting tid-bit: a V-series (pre-production) 262 was fitted with a sleeve on its stick that allowed a pilot to crank it up higher at high speeds. I can't find out how much it extended, but full extention reduced aileron throw from 22 degrees down to 18 degrees. It's job was to reduce stick forces at high speeds by increasing leverage. Whether or not this was actually fitted to production aircraft, I don't know. My guess is that it was.


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: flakbait ]

[Thunder]

Be prepared to land and break the 262. Practice it offline or in training before taking it up. It would be a shame to loose a lot of Perk points because of not understanding flight characterestics of the 262. Just a  rumor I heard!

Thunder

[Fariz]

Arado is great. But it is me262 on the horizont...  

[DanielMcIntyre]

Good point Thunder, art imitating life, same thing happened in WW2, pilots not trained for jet flight jumping into the cockpits of jets = fatalities.  I definitely will be practicing offline in 262 before hitting the MA  

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I'm not sure a lot of people will be willing to fight the ubber50s of the buffs in those manificient expensive flying machines.
I'm talking about the average HTC pilot.

[hazed-]

but who can resist fireing 4x30mm at those slow poke BIG targets?  

[Fishu]

Hmm.. with fuel multiplier 262 basically seems useless in MA.

Takes minutes to grab altitude and then to BnZ enemies.

[MRPLUTO]

flakbait:

Good point about shutting down one engine to increase endurance.  As for the weight of each plane, I was doing my Ar-234 "dogfighting" with less than 25% fuel and, (obviously) no bombs, so my Ar-234's weight was certainly less than that of a fully loaded Me-262.  I expect the greatest difference in manuverability would be in roll rate because the Ar-234's 6 foot longer wingspan.

Anyway....I'll do what Thunder and Zygote suggested and practice with the 262 offline a lot.  And despite the differences in manuverability, it's very useful to practice "dogfighting" in the MA with the Ar-234 while only risking 60 perks as opposed to 100+ for the Me-262.

I claim one kill and two assists in the Ar-234.  The kill was a 109 who ripped his wings off trying to follow my manuvers at about 500 mph.  The assists came from a 1 vs 5 engagement that I eventually had to withdraw from because of low fuel.  The five enemies all hopelessly chased me, and were so hypnotized that pimpjoe pulled in behind them, getting 2 kills in about 10 seconds before they broke off.

fishu:  If you don't want to waste time & fuel to climb to altitude, do what a guy I knew in WarBirds did on "jet day". [One day a month the 262 was available on an unlimited basis.]  Because of the patience it took to use it, most pilots didn't bother because it was too boring.  He would, however, fly at 500+ mph on the deck, buzzing past active enemy fields looking for unsuspecting planes that had just taken off.  Giving off no icon, and approaching at such high speed he was almost never seen, and if his aim was good those 4 x 30mm did the job.  Kind of risky, but sounds like a real rush!

MRPLUTO, Captain, VMF-323, ~Death Rattlers~

[EagleFW]

what happens when you loose a wing.....and ur going 500mph.....did they have ejector seats??

[Reschke]

I do not remember reading anything about the 262 having ejection seats.  As far as I know the first German fighter aircraft to have ejection seats was the Do-335 Pfiel(sp?) also known as the Arrow.  It was a push/pull configuration for the propellers so they had to do something different to keep a pilot alive in case he had to bail.  If not then there would have been a fine red mist with big chunks of stuff falling all over the area.

[Pongo]

Does the Ardo have the leading edge slats the 262 has?

[MiG Eater]

An interesting tid-bit: a V-series (pre-production) 262 was fitted with a sleeve on its stick ..... Whether or not this was actually fitted to production aircraft, I don't know. My guess is that it was.

Having worked on one original Me 262 and several of the new-build models (at the Paine Field facility), I can say that I did not see an extension-type sleeve on any of the control sticks.  When sitting in the cockpit, the grip sits about mid-chest level on my 5'9" frame giving a lot of stick length and leverage.


Here is a photo of a new build airplane featuring the stick installation.  The new instrumentation was added at the customer's request.

 

MiG

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: MiG Eater ]

[Hammerhead]

I personally believe that the 262 can be used as a single predecessor to the slow and heavy bombers headed into nme territory for a strike. It could do a short recon run at higher altitudes and perhaps warn upcoming bombers for the presence of other nmes up in the air. I do that with the AR234 (not so great a job when u cant shoot back) but it prepares the upcomin fighter escorts to get to the alt/speed conditions they know they might require. Also the 262 can increase its flight time by gliding back to base from its high perch.
But I personally love the 262 for its buff killing power. A single swoop on a B17 would definitely rip its wing apart or blow out a few engines.......
Bye Bye to all those who whine about the higher buff characteristics of the bombers.