Author Topic: Killshooter  (Read 650 times)

Offline Wotan

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Killshooter
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2002, 11:20:02 AM »
Killshootr stops the dweebs from spray and praying like mad from behind ya....

 if all you do is fly around at 20+k then either way it dont bother you.

No one "likes" killshootr much like no one "likes" the colision model but its the only practical way to do it.

They guy who "flies in front of you" may not on his fe. He may by d300 above or below you. So the responsiblity to ensure a clean shot is yours.

Because of lag no one can purposely killshootr you nor can they purposely ram you.


You pull the trigger and die its your fault. I mean the guy isn't spawning in front of you........hes coming from some where trying to get a kill like you. Its up to you to look around ......

SA aint just about badguys. One could argue that if the other guy over takes you and gets in a position where you ks yourself that in fact you shoulda broke off because the other guy clearly has the advantage.

Sure you'll screw up and not make sure you have a clear shot. Sure you'll get target fixated and pull the trigger rather then concede the advantage......and killshooter sux after all thats your kill right............

That other guy is is just stealing your kill right......?

Everything that hapens on you end is your fault......

you killshotr
you collide
you die in any way its your fault

Offline midnight Target

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Killshooter
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2002, 11:27:22 AM »
Kill shooter works ok. The solution an "unnamed sim" that is no longer around used, was to make you persona non grata in your country for 24 hours if you killed 2 friendlies. Worked pretty well IIRC.
OTOH this concept of kill stealing is still foreign to me. If the enemy dies I don't care who killed him/her. This is still the most illogical reason for a whine I have seen on the boards.

Offline Fatty

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Killshooter
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2002, 11:37:57 AM »
Nearly always TnB, would not want anything different about killshooter.

Unless you are that worried about score, you should be happy you got him low and slow for the bottom feeders and move on without even pursuing.

Offline Sandman

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Killshooter
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2002, 11:38:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Killshootr stops the dweebs from spray and praying like mad from behind ya....


In my experience, nothing stops dweebs from spray and praying.

Quote


 if all you do is fly around at 20+k then either way it dont bother you.


Like I said, in the past it didn't

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No one "likes" killshootr much like no one "likes" the colision model but its the only practical way to do it.


That's what is always said. Has anything else ever been tried, ever?

Quote

They guy who "flies in front of you" may not on his fe. He may by d300 above or below you. So the responsiblity to ensure a clean shot is yours.


I disagree. If you're horning in on someone else's kill, you know it. You're just racing to get their first and hoping your FE doesn't kill you.

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Because of lag no one can purposely killshootr you nor can they purposely ram you.


I disagree. My lag isn't that bad. If I can fly in formation at 30-50 klicks, I can certainly cause a killshot or ram you.

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You pull the trigger and die its your fault. I mean the guy isn't spawning in front of you........hes coming from some where trying to get a kill like you. Its up to you to look around ......


When the trigger is pulled and the friendly appears in front of me, I'm going to use golf words.

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SA aint just about badguys. One could argue that if the other guy over takes you and gets in a position where you ks yourself that in fact you shoulda broke off because the other guy clearly has the advantage.


Maybe that other guy should go kill something else rather than cash in on the fruits of someone else's labor.

Quote

Sure you'll screw up and not make sure you have a clear shot. Sure you'll get target fixated and pull the trigger rather then concede the advantage......and killshooter sux after all thats your kill right............

That other guy is is just stealing your kill right......?


Exactly.

Quote

Everything that hapens on you end is your fault
you killshotr
you collide
you die in any way its your fault


It's not about assigning blame. It's about finding another way to fix the supposed problem. I think the cure is worse than the disease.
sand

Offline Fatty

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Killshooter
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2002, 11:39:57 AM »
Besides, are you seriously stating that you can actually get a kill in a plane as slow as a zeke without having stolen it from somebody somewhere along the way?

Offline Fatty

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Killshooter
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2002, 11:40:53 AM »
The fruits of your labor....


Come on man, get serious.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2002, 11:41:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fatty
Besides, are you seriously stating that you can actually get a kill in a plane as slow as a zeke without having stolen it from somebody somewhere along the way?


Absolutely. You should try it. :)
sand

Offline MadBirdCZ

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Killshooter
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2002, 11:42:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FDisk

ever played counter-strike with "killshooter" off?


:D


Hmm... maybe Im a bit strange person but I never play counterstrike with kilshooter on (if you mean the mode when you hit friendly and no damage on his nor your end). Since CS is team-based game and you don't know how to shoot someone has to pay the price. But I don't think that comparing AH to CS is relevant to problem of AH's killshooter. And if you ask me then Il reply that - 'Yes! I like Counterstike killshooter more than the AH's one because in CS I always know where my teammates are and I dont shoot them!' :)

Edit:

But I shoot Hostages because CTs are often hiding behind them and with that Kalashnikov I use is pretty hard to hit only 1 target when there are 2 hiding behind one another :D
« Last Edit: March 18, 2002, 12:12:30 PM by MadBirdCZ »

Offline Fatty

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Killshooter
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2002, 11:42:45 AM »
Oh I've done my zeke kills, never did get a chance to whine about killshooter in it though.

Offline Wlfgng

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Killshooter
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2002, 11:47:06 AM »
I like the idea of friendly collisions...  it works in IL2...

Offline Bullethead

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Killshooter
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2002, 12:20:18 PM »
Gotta register my opinion on killshooter once again:

I HATE IT as it stands currently.  It is a complete over-reaction to a very minimal problem, and has created much larger and even more annoying problems.  It needs to be modified.  

The purpose of killshooter is to keep grief players from hosing lotsa friendlies.  No question, it accomplishes this mission by making it utter suicide even to attempt fragging.  However, it is so heavy-handed that it causes serious problems for legitimate players.  These  problems, IMHO, out-weigh any good killshooter does.  Furthermore, killshooter actively fosters the spread of another type of grief player:  the kill-stealer.  

Granted, there needs to be something in place to keep griefing down to an acceptable level.  However, killshooter is directly responsible for an unacceptable level of griefing by kill-stealers.  Knowing they're completely safe from friendly bullets, they habitually cut in front of the guy whose done all the work, steal his kill, and make him shoot himself down.  Plus they retain their own E because they didn't have to do any work, so they can do this over and over.  What fun!

Don't tell me you don't see this happening 24/7.  Killshooter is the ONLY reason for the conga lines of 5-6 guys chasing 1 low nme, as each guy desperately tries to cut in front of all the others.  You know they're more interested in stealing the kill and robbing each other than with playing the game, because engaging in such chases is obviously tactically and stretegically disadvantageous.

Therefore, killshooter should be replaced immediately with a PNG system similar to, but not quite exactly, what DOS AW had.  The AW system worked very well, but had 2 problems HT has objected to in previous killshooter discussions:  1) it didn't go into effect until the end of your sortie, so you could cause mucho grief before then; and 2) you could then switch countries and do it again.

To avoid these problems and those of the present killshooter, I propose the following system:
  • Your bullets normally work just fine on friendlies.  If some kill-stealing dweeb cuts in front of you, he dies.  
  • However, if you kill 2 friendlies within some short time interval (a couple hours or so), you become PNG immediately.
  • When you become PNG, killshooter turns on for you.  For the rest of your sortie, any hits on friendlies do damage to you like they do now.
  • At the end of the sortie in which you go PNG, you cannot fly at again for 24 hours.  This ban is in effect for all countries, so you can't switch sides and keep fragging.


I believe this system accomplishes all the goals of a) preventing grief fragging, b) preventing grief kill-stealing, c) making pilots be more careful when they shoot, and d) preventing idiotic conga lines.

In my system, killshooter's only purpose is to bring fragging sprees to an instant end.  After that, PNG keeps the fragger grounded.  Neither should normally encumber the legitimate pilot who accidentally blows away a couple of kill thieves over the course of an evening, at least after the community adapts to the new system.

Sure, it's possible to go PNG completely by accident if you kill too many kill-stealers.  This can suck, but it's VERY rare.  In my experience with such a system in DOS AW, I went PNG this way maybe once every 6 months.  I fragged a kill-stealer maybe once every couple of weeks, but hardly ever did I get 2 of them in the same evening.  Simple reason for that:  there weren't many kill-stealers in the arena because everybody knew cutting in front was suicide.  

So don't base assumptions on how often you'd go PNG on the frequency of your deaths to today's killshooter.  Simply because killshooter exists, people cut in front of you ALL THE TIME.  Once they learn they'll die doing that, they won't cut in front any more.

Anyway, bottom line:  Killshooter is effective at it's job, but is such over-kill that it has created a set of new problems both more common and more annoying than the occasional grief fragger ever was.  It needs to be changed.  Having everybody able to kill 1 friendly ever few hours poses a serious deterent to kill-stealers without the heavy-handedness of killstealer.  No more grief kill-stealing, no more conga lines.  It also gives legit players some cushion so that they are unlikely to go PNG just in the normal course of business.  At the same time, however, this system keeps grief fragging down to an acceptable level.  Once you wax 2 guys, you're done for the day.  2 guys in an arena of 400+ isn't even noticeable except to the 2 guys involved.  Especially when the true grief fragger is a very rare visiter to the arena.

Offline FDisk

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Killshooter
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2002, 12:21:53 PM »
Quote
Hmm... maybe Im a bit strange person but I never play counterstrike with kilshooter on (if you mean the mode when you hit friendly and no damage on his nor your end). Since CS is team-based game and you don't know how to shoot someone has to pay the price. But I don't think that comparing AH to CS is relevant to problem of AH's killshooter. And if you ask me then Il reply that - 'Yes! I like Counterstike killshooter more than the AH's one because in CS I always know where my teammates are and I dont shoot them!'


That's great in theory. I'd LOVE to play without KS but the reality of the situation (and the point of my arguement) is not avoiding shooting other people but stopping the dweebs who spray randomly at the beginning of the round killing 1/2 the team and ruining to for everyone.

Offline MadBirdCZ

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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2002, 12:23:33 PM »
And really I dont see the killshooter as it is now a big problem. When I look into the past I died from KS about 2 or 3 times for the whole 2 yrs Im in here.... Well once I killed myself this way in Tempest... since then I better do not shoot if im not 150% sure that I hit the bad guy and not some other wiseguy's ass. But I really enjoy flying in packs of about 20 greens chasing franticaly 1 poor red guy on the deck... Im not shooting... Just swiming in other ppl's spray-streams and enjoying them going boom... :rolleyes:  You have to try this one day its pretty relaxing :D

Offline MadBirdCZ

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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2002, 12:25:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FDisk


That's great in theory. I'd LOVE to play without KS but the reality of the situation (and the point of my arguement) is not avoiding shooting other people but stopping the dweebs who spray randomly at the beginning of the round killing 1/2 the team and ruining to for everyone.


EXACTLY! and therefore I say: Leave KS as it is (at least in MA)

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2002, 12:36:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead
Gotta register my opinion on killshooter once again:

I HATE IT as it stands currently.  It is a complete over-reaction to a very minimal problem, and has created much larger and even more annoying problems.  It needs to be modified.  
 ...


Excellent post, Bullethead. Couldn't have said it better.
sand