P51's vs FWa5's in SEA; ROE Discussion

[Hangtime]

Hi all.. here's a synopsis of whats transpired to date..

Hristo has issued a challenge: I repeat, 8 vs 8 at least, SEA, no icons fight, 10 k merge, no diving into the merge (  ), anything goes after. Are those conditions acceptable ?

At first glance; aside from the altitude being somewhat low for a fight with this little monster, it seemed fine. I then went into the SEA last night and ran some 2 v 2's A5's vs P51's and came back with:

Hooooooly moly.
Just flew some practice P51D's against FWa5's in the SEA.. the A5 is fargin invisble aginst the terrain. The pony on the other hand; sticks out like a sore thumb.

"As it should be" you might say.. after all; the bright skinned allied A/C were that way to bring the LW to the fight, right??

Only thing is; when the allies did that they had a huge numerical superiority to the LW.. and was a key part of the strategy of bringing the tattered remmanants of the LW to battle so it could be eradicated.

So; that leaves us with an 8 v 8 duel where the LW has a significant advantage in aircraft climb, manuverbilty and visbility.

What can we do to even up the contest somewhat?? Wait for P51B's?? (a more historicly correct adversary for the FWa5's) Shall we turn icons on?? Or even the odds by using the historicly accurate numbers of at least 2 to 1.. ??

Certainly; as it stands, the way the graphics are rendered on a PC screen; what we have is not at all acceptable to produce a 'fair' fight.... both sides should be equally visable or invisble at the least.

Hristo's reasonable response:

Plane quality is decided by many factors, including camo scheme. I agree, US planes did not need to hide the way the Luftwaffe had to make their planes harder to spot.

However, it is a double edged sword. If it shines, it is an opportunist. If it doesn't, it is Luftwaffe

Or would you rather be flying camouflaged Spitfires ?

P 51D has some very important advantages over Fw 190A-5, but camo ain't one of them.

Let's leave no-icon rule, unless you all agree it should be changed.

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Ok.. so; here's where it stands.. I'm not charmed by the incredible advantage given the perfectly camoflaged a5's in a No Icon fight. It's far more effective on our flat 19" monitors than it was in real life.. and sadly, the pony shows up even better than it would in real life.

I'm wondering just WHAT 'important advantages' a pony actually has against an invisble FW that climbs, accels and turns better than, and has a better snap shot than a highly visable pony on the deck.

I'm not at all afraid of the fight.. I'm afraid you guys that have volunteered to fly ponies have NO idea how hard it's gonna be to stay saddled up on an a5 that literally dissapears as soon as it's below you.

So; I put it to you, the particpants, to decide on one of these four choices...

Accept the challenge as it is.

We wait for the P51B's to be released.

We turn the Icons on.

We ask for a Winter terrain set. (snow on the ground)

Before we get into merge alts; combat area definition; time limits, and other particulars of the ROE, etc; I think we oughta get the visibility issue settled first.

Participants.. how say you?

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[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-05-2000).]

[Zigrat]

Hmm.

Well, hangtime, I actually believe the pony is better than the a5, if you load it with 25% gas like you guys likely will in such a duel, 25% is more than enough to fight this fight probably.

But in the 190, 50-75% would be the required load. There is no turn advantage when the planes are thus configured.

I disagree with you, i believe 6 .50s are superior to 2 mausers.

The stang is faster.

The stang has better visibility over the nose.

Ok thats where the stang is better.

The wulfe climbs and accelerates better.
The wulfe rolls better.
The wulfe is equal in turn to pony (25% versus 50%) they have the same duration at these loadouts.

[Dead Man Flying]

Maybe you guys could try merging over the water.  Go to A23 and head west for 5 minutes or to A8 and go east for 5 minutes.  Voila, the blue water should negate any camo advantages.  OTOH, this eliminates some of the fun of a scissoring fight on an uneven deck.

-- Todd/DMF

[funked]

I think the problem is that camo works too well due to graphics limitations.

[svk]

Fight over water would make 190s more visible.

[Hangtime]

LOL Zig.. you were the one who demonstrated to me without question that the a5 will romp all over the P51 in a low turn fight. When I met up with you and your A5; I was less than 25% fuel; and you had enuff to make it home after the fight. Further definitive testing of the two planes revealed a significant turn advantage held by the A5 at 15k; and the lower the a5 fights the larger the advantage. And since the climb AND the turn rates, AND accel AND powerloading are superior in the a5; I'd say a visbility equaliser AT THE LEAST is in order.

Last night; I saddled up the A5 as the adversary and utterly flummoxed two very competent P51 drivers. Since I'd had a bit of time in the G10 I had the LW cannon ROF and trajectories nailed. All I needed was a little snapshot opportunity and *POOF* went the ponies. Time and again. Every time I ducked under them they lost me instantly. I could see them clearly no matter what their postion relative to the terrain was; I was invisble to them as soon as terrain got behind their view to me.

I reversed the roles; and same results... A5's cleaned my clock; and it was because I couldn't see them.

Let me be clear.. I'm not saying 'NO' to the fight.. I just want equal visbility to help offset the already significant advantages the A5 is bringing to the fight.

Salute Zigrat! (and that WAS a heluva fight..  )

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[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-05-2000).]

[-ammo-]

the no icon thing doesnt bother me as much as the hard ceiling before the merge. Climbing, reversing and merging at the hard ceiling gives the FW a large advantage on the initial merge, they will undoubtably exploit it and get above us right then and then keep climbing, after all the FW is at the alt it behaves best--10K, we need to be at 25K to be at home. Only superior team tactics can win this, providing the skill of the pilots on both sides are equal. Drag and bag. I flew in a similar duel with vadr and a bunch of other LW guys. We flew the 109K against the pony, ( daddy= leading it with several of the 4th FG guys). They basically cleaned our clocks, but they had the luxury of flying together daily and in WB's the 109K is a non turning beast of a climber Here the FW is alot more AC for the money

I say give us 2K advantage or allow us a hard ceiling that is 2-3k above the merge alt would even it up on the merge a little. However, i doubt Hristo will go for it. He wants to enjoy the Energy advantage at merge.

 

[jihad]

 Make them fly the 190a8 Hangtime.  

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Jihad
48th FG "Checkertails

[JENG]

Hang... sorry to say this but you are boring me a bit. I realy don't mind the ICON thing ON or OFF doesnt matter to me... and it should probably be on (you are right bout the camo in combination with the low resolution possible on pc screens). What I'm a bit bored with is the fact that you always play the 'Underdog'... saying how good the luftwobbles rides are in comparison to your pony. The way you do it you always win. If you lose the duel you can say that it's because of the German Iron being so good... if you win you get a pat on the back for defeating the sooooo superior german planes... shuckles   What you are doing is derating the German Iron flyers... If they win you can say its because the planes... if they lose you can even laugh harder cause they lost with 'superior' planes. (BTW not talking bout the hangvshristo duel... I realy respect you dueling that fight... cause in case of the G10 you are probably right... it's got much more acceleration and climbpower... but you defeat that and won 2 outa 3 S)

I mean come on... you are one Heck of a pilot and can beat me hands down... ACT LIKE IT...   I believe... individual pilot performance is going to be important... plane performance is going to play only a slight factor. The most important factor however will be wingtactics... (for example flying combatwing or welded wing, splitting elements when outnumbered, etc).

190A5 (at sealvl) (1942 plane)
topspeed :  327 mph
with WEP :  338 mph
Climbrate: 3200 feet/min
with WEP : 3900 feet/min

P51D (at sealvl) (1944 plane)
topspeed :  355 mph
with WEP :  369 mph
Climbrate: 3050 feet/min
with WEP : 3450 feet/min

You see the differences arent that big and will be smaller when the pony flies with 25% and the 190 with 50 or 75% fuel. Also these figures are at sealvl... from 10 K up the A5 will get increasingly worse in performance while your p51 will become better and better.
Even with these figures I say again pilot level and element level will decide who will win the duel... NOT PLANE PERFORMANCE!!

I'm sorry for ranting Hang... you know I respect you an awefull lot... and I realy believe you are a great pilot, maybe even the best in the pony... but I just got a little fed up...

Salute HANGTIME


Bee signing off

[Rude]

Its simple guys....I have no fear regarding the FWa5...I just need to be able to see it to kill it!

Superior this and that is fine...just want to be able to see those seekin to put another hole in my head  

Hang is right...LW has a great ride...the only other plane I've flown in these sims, other than the 51, was a six month stint in a FW in WB. Great ride.

I strongly believe the 51 flown correctly will prevail...agree to simply turn on the lights and I'll be in the SEA in a New York Minute  

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[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 07-05-2000).]

[Vulcan]

Come on guys... lets pack up our 190s and go home.

These whoopee 51 wusses got a bad case of the curry-runs.

-vlkn- in

[ra]

I've said this 5 million times: no-icons is a bad idea, it doesn't work.  Now 5 million and one.

ra

[JENG]

As I said before... I dont care if the icons are on or off... that wasn't my point  

Seeya up guys

Bee

[Hangtime]

BEE..

LOL... I fly the best plane that ever got a gun and a prop. Never doubted it. No pony pilot worth a damn does. 'If yah get killed flyin a P51; it wasn't the planes fault.' Sound familiar??   Your point is well taken.. tho I suspect you may be reacting to my comments meant to tease; not deride the LW's pilots or it's planes. I have great respect for all of you that fly LW iron.. and try my damndest to let you know how much I appreciate a good fight...

<S!> BEE.    

Now; back to the issues. As far as visibility goes; we gotta problem. Can't get a kill if yah can't see what yer shootin at. No need for the LW to pack up the FW's and go home. Paint 'em silver.    

Why are the LW guys tryin to hold ALL the cards? We're just tryin to get an even crack at these A5's, and with a 20k merge and Icons on, the LW STILL has the tactical advantage. Sheesh. I ain't interested in packin up and goin home; I just wanna fair fight!

Ammo's point is well taken; and the merge altitude is still very much in debate. Hristo offered 10; I countered with 20 and offered to settle for 15k. And, having just lost a duel to runnin outta gas; I don't think you'll catch me in the same position against the LW's best again. I; for one, will be packin more than a quarter tank.     I don't think you guys need worry about us showin up light as feathers for a 8v8 match.

Now; it is said that you LW boys technicaly have the better plane for this kind of fight. Hristo certainly has no reservations regarding reminding us that the Luftwaffles have the better pilots, and that the allies are just opportunists. Under the current proposed ROE it's lookin like the LW is taking opportunist lessons.    

Finally, I agree; pilot skills will be a deciding factor. This whole thread is aimed at making sure that pilot skills and aircraft ARE the big factors in this fight; not paintjobs and computer graphics.

Hang

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-05-2000).]

[Wardog]

Hang..

What Bee is saying is, he doesnt mind at all waiting for the P51-Ia or P51-B to be modled before the 8v8 happens  

WTG Bee