Author Topic: Range icons - pool (Read 395 times)

Lucchini · « **on:** March 25, 2002, 05:07:10 AM »

Hi all,
I strongly believe that deleting the range icons will improve the fun in the arena, requesting greater SA, avoiding spray and pray and 800yds kills and providing closer dogfights.
At least range icons could disappear below 1k distance.

Do you agree?

Lucchini

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2002, 05:13:47 AM »

I agree for ranges below 500 yards.

I would erase the range indication for up to 1500 yards if it is exchanged by a closure indication. My main problem with icons turned off is just to find out whether the con is aproaching or fleeing away. Our pixel world is too limited to have a clear idea of closure rates.

Wilbus · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2002, 05:29:50 AM »

Yes, no distance icons at all, or atleast not bellow 1.5k (if bellow 1k everybody know they can hit anyway and will thus spray as much).

For a closure measure, add a + or a - next to the icon.

+ = gaining, - = loosing.

Xjazz · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2002, 05:59:04 AM »

Good points Wilbus

Why not bring these No Range Icons or +/- Closure Icons as a h2h "options" so, peoples could at least test these?

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Yes, no distance icons at all, or atleast not bellow 1.5k (if bellow 1k everybody know they can hit anyway and will thus spray as much).

For a closure measure, add a + or a - next to the icon.

+ = gaining, - = loosing.

skernsk · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2002, 07:45:04 AM »

Sorry I disagree. We have 3K icons in the CT and I am getting my bellybutton handed to me on a regular basis. If the icons were not there under 1k or so my frustration level would be at maximum.

I like the way it is, and I fear change:)

Czpetr · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2002, 08:08:07 AM »

I don`t need range icons at all.
I should be happy to have at least CT without range icons.

czpetr

eskimo2 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2002, 08:28:42 AM »

I disagree,
I can see much greater detail in R.L. than I can on a monitor.
In general, the icons give us better information than we could possibly get in in RL (the difference between a Typhoon and a Tempest at 6.0, a low green 109 against a green background from 5K above, the instantaniousness of aircraft identification in general, etc.), but they are essential to make up for the lack of information that real eyesight would gather. On the monitor, you can tell the difference between a Lanc, a B-17 and a fighter beyond 6.0. If you can do this on the monitor without icons, it would seem reasonable that a fighter pilot with good vision could do the same in RL.
Range icons seem to also give us more and less info than we would get in R.L.

eskimo

lazs2 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2002, 08:29:00 AM »

When i am out plinking with guns I never have much trouble estimating ranges out to about 5 hundred or so yards but in the game I can't even begin to guess at what they may be. I think we need em or... something else that would give a better visual clue as too distance.
lazs

popeye · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2002, 08:49:39 AM »

Definitely need some sort of rate-of-closure indicator.

Czpetr · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2002, 09:01:11 AM »

I used to fly in WB no-icon arena and had no troubles to estimate effective firing range. If the enemy plane is big enough to see details - than it is time to shoot

For me personally, the range icon (or closure-rate ring in WWIIOL) is just disturbing and I could happily live without it. But maybe its just me

czpetr

SKurj · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2002, 09:22:54 AM »

exact range data unneccessary at any range...

ww2ol manages without numbers and it seems to work well.

SKurj

FDisk · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2002, 10:10:00 AM »

Ya, some how they do it with 2 gigs of RAM...

illo · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2002, 01:19:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Czpetr
I used to fly in WB no-icon arena and had no troubles to estimate effective firing range. If the enemy plane is big enough to see details - than it is time to shoot For me personally, the range icon (or closure-rate ring in WWIIOL) is just disturbing and I could happily live without it. But maybe its just me

czpetr

Same with me..I never needed icons.

Btw. I've read RL accounts by really good pilots on spotting low flying planes 500m away. Sometimes even closer. Against ground and woods it's really hard to see green plane. Also i have an impression that most kills in RL came as suprise. That seems to me that in RL it wasnt as easy to spot aircraft as in clear and clinic AH arena. In RL you couldn't count enemys E state from numbers scrolling above his airplane.

I had my most real feeling fights in no icon evironment. Fights have more depth and it comes even more about pilot than plane since enemys E state is harder to measure. Deflection shooting at range comes harder and you have to close up for shots against maneuvering targets. I think many of us look just icons when attacking or defending. Waiting such and such number to open fire/start evasives. When you are actually not sure if enemy is gaining at you or not it comes much more complicated.

Anyway there is no possibilty of this no-icon thingie in AHs main arena. Most pilots just cant handle it. They are so used to fight against icons.

my thoughts in nutshell.
-monitor restrics and eases view
-AH/WB skies are allways clear (great visibility)
-AH/WB planes are easier to spot at long distances than RL.(icons or not)
-AH/WB planes are easier to spot against ground than RL. (icons or not)
-AH/WB planes are easier to identify at range than RL (icons or not)

In AH we can identify most planes simply by color. RL planes didn't have matching painjobs and pilots didn't allways know what planes they were facing. Also simple colors in ground and sky help spotting planes against both.

As I can allready say, most people here don't agree with this.

But my thoughts have formed from what ive read and what ive experienced in no icon environment of online sims. I get more realistic fights without icons.

illo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2002, 01:37:04 PM »

Lucchini I agree with you. And would go even further.
But it will never happen in MA. MB you should go to CT?
I think we all should.

to skernsk.

Quote

Sorry I disagree. We have 3K icons in the CT and I am getting my bellybutton handed to me on a regular basis. If the icons were not there under 1k or so my frustration level would be at maximum.

I like the way it is, and I fear change

I understand. I takes much relearning to adjust tactics and style.
I know I fight icons on MA too. I look more icons than planes there because thats how it works.

When I fly in no icon arena i pay much more attention to SA. I try to make sure I spot con before he spots me. I try to understand where he is heading. Then I dive to his blind spot(under wing or low 6) and close in. If he still has not seen me I close in until he fills my gunsight. And down he goes. If he notices me...fight begins. Also when there are no icons it's not easy to fly alone. More eyes you have the better are changes to spot enemy before he spots you. Who spots first can maneuver to advantageous position first.(Be that higher E-state at start of fight or simply maneuver to suprise).

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2002, 03:04:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by illo
I had my most real feeling fights in no icon evironment. Fights have more depth and it comes even more about pilot than plane since enemys E state is harder to measure. Deflection shooting at range comes harder and you have to close up for shots against maneuvering targets. I think many of us look just icons when attacking or defending. Waiting such and such number to open fire/start evasives. When you are actually not sure if enemy is gaining at you or not it comes much more complicated.

You do know all computer games are on the scale of about 1/144th compared to the real world?

Quote

Originally posted by illo
Anyway there is no possibilty of this no-icon thingie in AHs main arena. Most pilots just cant handle it. They are so used to fight against icons.

No, it's that many players have poor eyesight. Many players also have low resolution monitors. Many players also do not want to chase around an bogey airplane for 30mins-> hour to find out if it's friendly or enemy. Most players do not have the time to do that either. The fact that the MA has all aircraft available for all sides kind of negates no icon in the first place, but you never thought that might be the reason for icons, did ya?

Quote

Originally posted by illo
my thoughts in nutshell.
-monitor restrics and eases view
-AH/WB skies are allways clear (great visibility)
-AH/WB planes are easier to spot at long distances than RL.(icons or not)
-AH/WB planes are easier to spot against ground than RL. (icons or not)
-AH/WB planes are easier to identify at range than RL (icons or not).

Now how does a monitor ease view when you get your view restricted from real life? You know, peripheral vision, you may not be able to make out what's next to you, but you'll easily see something moving. Can't see anything like that with a monitor.

The skies being clear has nothing to do with icons, the fact that even on a hazy day I can see more detail on planes farther away than I can on AH in RL must hint to you that maybe seeing stuff in RL is a lil' easier based on size?

Planes easier to spot? Do you fly, or just base this on books? Because believe me, if you are looking around you'll see a whole lot of things in the sky at distances where AH displays a dot.. and they have a lot of detail.

Planes easier to spot on the ground? No, not at all. Sure, maybe a white cessna, but if you fight a N1K2 with no icons on the Mindanao terrain you're going to be in for a big surprise. Plus, planes tend to have reflections off canopies at distances much further than AH. Thus the glistening off of something will bring you attention to it... not so in AH.

Planes are easier to identify at ranges? Now I wouldn't bet on that, I can identify any plane in the game at any distance because of the plane shape... not the color. I know a SpitV from a SpitIX because of color, but I do not know a P51D from a P47D-30 because of color... but because of shape.

Quote

Originally posted by illo
In AH we can identify most planes simply by color. RL planes didn't have matching painjobs and pilots didn't allways know what planes they were facing. Also simple colors in ground and sky help spotting planes against both.

Again, you are very confused. I have been flying these combat "sims" for atleast 8 years, I know each plane from each plane no matter what color scheme they use. I have no problem differentiating a custom paint job Lagg-3 from MiG-3U in Il-2 with no icons, why do you really think it makes that much of a difference?

At 6.0K, the range icons pop up, in RL you'd see a LOT more detail on that aicraft and it would be much bigger in relation to you so you could better make it out from a difference. The icons are just making up for what is missing.... and that's size.

Quote

Originally posted by illo
As I can allready say, most people here don't agree with this.
But my thoughts have formed from what ive read and what ive experienced in no icon environment of online sims. I get more realistic fights without icons.

I see, so you haven't formed your opinion based on the real world but just what you've read and what you've played?

Manfred von Richtoffen had his entire aircraft painted red, and his entire Flying Circus had aircraft painted all sorts of exotic colors.... the very same pilot who managed 80 kills on aircraft half the size of the ones we are "flying" in this game... he said it didn't much matter what color your aircraft is painted, you will be seen anyway as long as you move.

WWI and WWII aircraft can't very well stop in the middle of the air.