Developing the Planeset

[Sikboy]

I just thought I'd bring this over to it's own thread, to un-hijack Mitsu's Ki-84 thread.

Originally rationally reasoned by Bullethead
Well, I got a counter-argument for that, too . HTC is a very small firm so the amount of development hours it can muster per day is quite limited. I don't know how they divide up the work but I'm sure HT has to do something fairly significant whenever planes get added. The time he spends on adding planes is time he can't spend adding new game features, improving old ones, and patching bugs.

As I see it, plane selection isn't a real customer draw. I mean, look at AH now: 43 fighters of which 3 or 4 get way more use than any of the others, and of which 9 get as much use as all the other 34 put together. The market has spoken there, IMHO. Nobody much wants to fly planes that can't hang with spits and N1s in the low-alt landgrabbing vulchfest that is the MA.

Therefore, IMHO, developing features of the game itself is more important at this juncture than adding more planes. HTC should add more realism, add more things for players to do, etc., and maybe enhance the graphics (which are fine with me but you know how that goes). This is what draws and keeps customers IMHO. Any added planes should be done very carefully. And given the limited manhours HTC has available, it's just counterproductive to spend a lot on planes that won't get much use.

I think 1.09 had about the right mix of stuff. The emphasis was on features, although the new planes got all the notice. But look at the new integral vox that now works, the way cool film viewer, the new strat system, the improved padlock (I have a handicapped squaddie who loves this), etc. The added planes were good choices, too. The whole BoB set of fighters for the scenario crowd, a new buff with a good balance of strengths and weaknesses, and a new heavy fighter that's quite useful without being dominating. I'd like to see more updates along these lines.


quote:
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This is good stuff though. I've asked about what people feel should qualify an aircraft as a modeling candidate, but this is the first real feedback I've gotten on the subject. Thanks Bullethead
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Back at ya. Nice to be able to discuss this with somebody for a change, without it degenerating into dweebs whining about wanting plane X because it's better than existing plane Y, and inventing some BS, insincere PC argument to justify it ("it's unfair that country Z doesn't have an uberplane like the other countries") without realizing that they'll never be able to spank plane Y because the nme will all be flying plane X, too.

As for my own choices for additions to the planeset.... Very hard to say, at least for fighters. Any new fighter added must IMHO meet the following criteria:




it must be good enough to hang with the usual MA suspects (spit, N1, et al)

it must not be significantly better than the usual MA suspects



If the plane fails the 1st test, the plane won't get used much if at all, outside of the occasional scenario that calls for it. So this rules out most early war planes, at least doing new ones from scratch. OTOH, if the plane fails the 2nd test, it will get used too much until it gets perked, at which point it won't get used much at all. There just ain't any fighters I can think of off the top of my head that meet these criteria and ain't already in the game.

But AH fortunately has more things in it than fighters. There are buffs, boats, ships, and GVs. New things can be added in all these areas to enhance overall gameplay without upsetting balances. Some of these will be perk jobs, but we need more perkies in these areas anyway.

Buffs:



C46: perked transport, capable of carrying multiple sets of troops, supplies, or some combination of both.

SB2C: we need a late-model divebomber.

A20 and Pe2: light bombers with decent speed

A26: perked vulchasaurus rex  



Boats:



E-boat of the S100 class: alternative to current PT, trading guns and 2 immediate torp shots for more speed and some armor.



Ships:



Submarines and ASW weapons on DEs

Allow players to control DEs individually to conduct ASW and torp attacks. Also let players man more guns on them.

Convoys of transport ships for strat supply

Player-controlled LSTs that can spawn player-controlled GVs on the beach.



GVs



SdKfz 7/1: unarmored flak halftrack with 4x20mm.

T34/76: a match for the Pz4H in gun and armor (both can kill each other at normal battle ranges), with higher speed compensated by lack of commander hatch view (commander was gunner, open hatch blocked frontal view, and doctrine was to fight buttoned anyway)

SU-85: a gun dangerous to the perked tanks but with limited traverse and armor of unperked thickness. Built on T34 hull so might be easy to do along with the T34/76.

Sherman M4A3(75): weaker gun than Pz4H or T34/76, but carries more ammo and climbs hills better.

JPz IV/70: Pz4 hull with Panther gun in limited traverse mount and nasty armor up front.

T34/85: slightly perked tank. Good gun, slightly better armor than T34/76, and no view restrictions.

Panther G: medium perked tank. Better gun than other tanks and frontal armor proof against other tank guns at normal ranges, but sides and rear are vulnerable to even the M8. Thus, it's not invincible, as a King Tiger might prove to be.

JS-2: medium perked tank. monster gun and massive armor, but very slow and with an extremely low rate of fire.

King Tiger: highly perked tank. Great gun and good armor all around, but slow.



__________________
Bullethead
BH3841

[Sikboy]

Originally stated by Bullethead
I think 1.09 had about the right mix of stuff. The emphasis was on features, although the new planes got all the notice. But look at the new integral vox that now works, the way cool film viewer, the new strat system, the improved padlock (I have a handicapped squaddie who loves this), etc. The added planes were good choices, too. The whole BoB set of fighters for the scenario crowd, a new buff with a good balance of strengths and weaknesses, and a new heavy fighter that's quite useful without being dominating. I'd like to see more updates along these lines.

I have to agree with this, but I also think that it undermines your argument just a bit. Since it implies that each release could use a few planes for the scenario crowd (and lets not forget TOD's and the CT ), it would be reasonable that a Ki-84 should be such an addition. In fact, by adding the Hayate, they might increase the CT and SEA utility of both the CHOG and F4U4 (As it stands there is no real historical adversary except the N1k2, which isn't a perk ride.) I personally don't think the Frank is a match for the perkhogs, but that's just me lol. But in the end I agree that 1.09 was a good mix of features and aircraft. The Germans got a Jabo worthy of the name (the Me-110 fits every criteria that we've come up with) the SEA addicts can play 1940, and we can all listen to some lady tell us that "Base is under attack."

-Sikboy

[Bullethead]

Sikboy said:

I have to agree with this, but I also think that it undermines your argument just a bit. Since it implies that each release could use a few planes for the scenario crowd (and lets not forget TOD's and the CT ), it would be reasonable that a Ki-84 should be such an addition.

Sorry I gave you that impression  What I was trying to say was that 1.09 only had 2 truly new planes:  110G and Ki67.   Both are quite fun and useful while not upsetting what has become the customary MA environment.  That environment's stability depends on having as large a mix as possible of relatively balanced furballers.  While some might argue that the 110G is a furballer, my experience so far indicates this isn't and won't be its best use .  So because both new planes can do useful things without upsetting the balance, the environmental diversity of the MA has been increased, which is a VERY good thing IMHO.  It gets boring fighting the same ol' spits and N1s all the time.

Besides these planes and all the new game features, 1.09 included 4 others, each of which was an older version:  109E, spit and Hurri I, and 110C.  It's my understanding, based on scattered comments by HT and Pyro, that adding different versions of a plane already in the game is relatively easy compared to adding a totally new plane or game feature.  So I consider all these early birds as langiappe--something HTC could toss in to sweeten the deal without taking undue effort away from game development.

I am definitely not complaining about having the BoB fighters.  While BoB scenarios and CTs have been done and redone countless times over the years, they're still a lot of fun.  I look forward to participating in the BoB scenario we're sure to have in the future.  But I'm just saying that we probably got them for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons only:

• adding them was relatively easy (at least once the 110G was done)
• of all early birds that could be added, these will see the most use both in the SEA/CT and even the MA

I did not mean to imply that all upgrades should contain planes added primarily for the SEA/CT market.  I just don't think that's a winning business strategy.  If HTC can work some in and still make payday, great.  But I don't see that happening much in the future.  With the advent of the BoB planes, most of the langiappe opportunities have been used up.  Maybe it would be relatively easy to add earlier Macchi, Yak, and Lavochkin versions.  

However, going over to the PTO, is a different story.  HTC would have to add most planes new from scratch.  An early zeke would be pointless without a whole new F4F and/or P40 for it to fight.  About the only "easy" options for opponents are eariler versions of the P38 and F6F.  Other common early Japanese planes, such as Betty, Val, Kate, Oscar, and Nate, would be from scratch.  So would more late-war Japanese planes, like Frank, Jack, Jill, and Judy.

In fact, by adding the Hayate, they might increase the CT and SEA utility of both the CHOG and F4U4 (As it stands there is no real historical adversary except the N1k2, which isn't a perk ride.)  I personally don't think the Frank is a match for the perkhogs, but that's just me lol.

Well, in the critical MA zone below 10k, the Frank can run down a Chog and then out-maneuver it.  I don't know much about the 4hog, so maybe the Frank would have more trouble catching it.  But I'm sure the Frank would at least break even with it over the course of a TD.

In any case, the Frank would be a new plane from scratch.  I think that if it's added, it would have to be perked to keep it from being far and away the dominant MA ride, just like what happened to the Chog.  Perked rides probably don't get enough use to really justify the effort spent making them as opposed to adding game features, unless the perked ride is a different version of an existing plane.  The Frank, however, would be totally new.

[Sikboy]

Does this mean that the PTO planeset shouldn't be allowed to grow? According to your philosophy, we get what we've got as far as pac rides go, unless the Shoki would be competitive (or the other stubby winged one, I forget the name lol).

I agree with you in princeple. But I think that you can not adhere to your rule so hard and fast. It's just too restrictive in my opinion. No P-40? Ever? No Pearl Harbor Scenario/TOD/CT setup every december? No Midway, Coral Sea or Guadalcanal? No, I really can't support such a strict adhearence to a rule that would prevent these wonderfull things from happening.

Obviously we're talking beyond just the Hayate now, but I'm trying to figure out general guidelines for plane additions.

-Sikboy

[Hamish]

Did some reading this weekend and another glaring absence from our planeset is the B-25... any model for that matter. I know people will whine and moan about another "American" Buff, but it played a major part in the war. Would be great to have an early model with a desert Camo job on it IMO there are so many planes to be modeled that any speculation on our part would be moot as to what HTC "Should" or "Will" model next. Obviously the Spit 14 is coming... On your other "Buff" selections, i disagree with adding the C46 as a "Perk" goonie. I would much rather see a JU-52, before a "perk" goonie came in. It would bring an alternative to the C-47, and a useful plane for scenario's and the CT. (besides, at least it had Some form of self defense, although meager at best )

and good discussion

[Bullethead]

Sikboy said:

Does this mean that the PTO planeset shouldn't be allowed to grow? According to your philosophy, we get what we've got as far as pac rides go, unless the Shoki would be competitive (or the other stubby winged one, I forget the name lol).

I don't think the Shoki would be competitive.  Most versions had only 4 MGs, weren't particularly fast, and certainly weren't maneuverable.  

That said, the PTO is my favorite theater of the war.  Of course I want to see all the planes I mentioned last time.  Problem is, I'm the minority here--far more people prefer the ETO.  If you're a student of AW history, you'll remember how way back it used to alternate between ETO and PTO planesets every month.  But lotsa folks squeaked about this so eventually they put up separate arenas for each planeset.  When they did this, nobody ever flew in the PTO arena unless the ETO arena was full.

So I don't think adding PTO planes is at present the highest priority.  Everybody's always going on about how we really need plane X, but like I said before, I think feature addition and enhancement are far more important.  AH is a great game at present, but look how many new features it just got, some of which (the film viewer and the improved padlock) I hadn't even heard were in the works.  I bet HT's got even more features up his sleeve that will take AH gameplay beyond anything we can imagine at present.  I mean, some areas of the game (ships, boats, buffs, GVs) have only had their surfaces scratched.  No telling what wonderful plans he's got for them.

Basically, it's like this.  From an MA perspectice, having corresponding planes for each real world country is totally bogus for 3 reasons.  First, because you can fly any plane any time regardless of who built it, country of origin is completely meaningless.  If there's a plane that will do the job, that's all that matters.  You fly it and do the job.  Second, in many cases there are no directly analogous planes in different real world countries, so it's not possible to achieve any kind of BS PC parity anyway.  Each country started the war with different ideas and each was faced with different circumstances in the war, so all their planes evolved in different directions.  And 3rd, even if there are directly analogous types, what justification is there for adding one when we already have the other?  That's just being redundant.  Such a new plane would add no new aspects to the game and would not change anything in combat except what gets printed on a few icons.

In the MA, we have 4 or 5 fighters that are competitive in the usual low-alt furballs.  We have 4 or 5 jabos that can do a lot of damage and still fly well enough to hang with the furballers.  We have a plane that can carry troops and supplies and we have several planes that can rain bombs on strat targets.  That's enough to play the game with.  That's even enough to become deeply attached to the game and get into flamewars with other players.  So IMHO that's all we need at present, until the HTC gets more features into the game.  New features open up new environmental niches, so it becomes easier to justify adding certain new planes.

NOTE:  I'm not saying the current MA mix is ideal.  I'm just saying that it's good enough for the time being.  It has to be, or else HTC wouldn't have had to increase arena capacity recently.  450 people every night must be liking what planes are already in the game.

So anyway, I figure we won't see a big expansion of the PTO planeset until further down the road.  I figure it'll be part of hypothetical AH II, which will also include an engine rewrite, more realism in flight, gunnery, and damage, greatly enhanced graphics, vastly expanded player control of ships and boats, way more GVs, and all that sort of thing.  In such a release, everything in the game will be changing, so discussions of how planes fit in with the current MA mix will be moot--such a release will naturally create a whole new pecking order.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Bullethead


Basically, it's like this.  From an MA perspectice, having corresponding planes for each real world country is totally bogus for 3 reasons.  First, because you can fly any plane any time regardless of who built it, country of origin is completely meaningless.  If there's a plane that will do the job, that's all that matters.  You fly it and do the job.  

For some (possibly most) people that's true. But there are many out there who can't fly anything that didn't have a swastika painted on it. There are those who fly the spit based on historic reputation.

Second, in many cases there are no directly analogous planes in different real world countries, so it's not possible to achieve any kind of BS PC parity anyway.  Each country started the war with different ideas and each was faced with different circumstances in the war, so all their planes evolved in different directions.

Yep. Agree.

 And 3rd, even if there are directly analogous types, what justification is there for adding one when we already have the other?  That's just being redundant.  

Sort of like how we don't need both the Dora AND the Pony. Or the Spit AND the N1k2?

Its possible that we will have to wait for AH2 for advancing the pac plane set, but where will they ever find the time, what with the new features, GVs, Ships ect. I think there's a happy medium somewhere.

-Sikboy

[Bullethead]

Sorry for letting this slip to page 2, but needs must when the Devil drives, and he sho'nuff does when things are on fire  Well, actually, it wasn't a fire, just some idiots who tried to test the amphibious capabilities of their pickup truck

Sikboy said:

For some (possibly most) people that's true. But there are many out there who can't fly anything that didn't have a swastika painted on it. There are those who fly the spit based on historic reputation.

There ain't many people who fly German iron, relatively speaking.  The most popular German plane in the MA alternates between the Dora and the 109G10, and neither ever manages better than #10 (the other is usually #11).   10th place in popularity in the MA is only about 2% of all hops.  That doesn't come close to the 7-9% consistently registered by each of the spit9, N1, 51D, and La7.  Hell, even the spit5 usually gets about 5%.  And ranking ahead of any German machine are such things as P38s, Dhogs, Typhoons, and F6Fs.

I don't think these numbers reflect anything re:  players' perspectives of historical reputations.  These numbers reflect players' appreciation of what planes are effective in the usual MA fare of low-alt furballs and jabo vulchfests pursuant to landgrabbing.  Hell, I would wager a case of beer that most AHers never heard of the La7 before they started playing this game, and that since then they know nothing about it save that it kicks bellybutton in most situations in the MA.  

IOW, role-playing isn't a factor for the vast bulk of AH customers.  They don't give a rat's bellybutton where the plane came from, they only care if it's competitive in the situations in which they usually find themselves.  They have a Quake (tm) mentality, not a flightsim mentality.  To them, the MA is a deathmatch game and the objective is to find the rocket launcher before the other guys.  

NOTE:  I'm not saying I think this is a good thing.  I'm just saying this is the reality we have to deal with.  It's this reality that drives HTC's decisions because it's this reality that controls their cash flow.  So no matter how much I might want a particular plane in the game, or a particular plane OUT of the game (deleted or perked), none of that will happen if it goes too much against the flow of the dweeb stampede of cash cows.  Thus, all input from us should be tempered by appreciation of this context.  Ignoring this context makes our suggestions a waste of bandwidth.

Sort of like how we don't need both the Dora AND the Pony. Or the Spit AND the N1k2?

I don't see any of these planes as directly analogous.  They all perform sufficiently differently, or can be used in different roles, or both.  So none of them are redundant.  

Its possible that we will have to wait for AH2 for advancing the pac plane set, but where will they ever find the time, what with the new features, GVs, Ships ect. I think there's a happy medium somewhere.

Every version of AH to date has introduced new features and most (including the last little patch) have introduced new planes (at least new versions of existing planes).  So I'm sure HTC can pull off a major revision with lots of both.  I bet it's already in work.

[Kieran]

Basically, it's like this. From an MA perspectice, having corresponding planes for each real world country is totally bogus for 3 reasons.

While you are well-articulated, I don't agree. No, we'll never strike the "nirvana" of balance, but you cannot give up on the concept of adding corresponding planes, either. It isn't all about the MA, and what makes the MA work.

You say the ETO is more popular than the PTO, and that may have been true in AW, but how do you know that translates to here? In my particular case, I find the PTO far more interesting. I find the Japanese planes elegant and rapier-like, and the conflict between America and Japan (as conducted by fleet operations) were some of the most dramatic battles of the war.

I don't disagree in theory with your concept of how much energy expended vs. how much utility received WRT new planes. Bottom line to me though is I look forward to those new planes, and my fervent hope is that I will get the chance to fly unique birds that have never been a part of other sims. So bring on the J2M and Ki44, heck, even bring on the Nate. Set up an early war CT and see if people don't come. The BoB has been plenty of fun.

[Bullethead]

Kieran said:

It isn't all about the MA, and what makes the MA work.

I agree that HTC can't ignore other arenas completely:  scenarios, TDs, the CT, all that stuff, are important for the game as a whole and could use some help in the form of more historical adversaries from different periods of the war than what we have in the MA.  I'm just saying that IMHO the effects on the MA have to be the make-or-break thing in decision-making.  I'm pretty certain that the MA is the only thing that makes money and, if so, it is carrying the losses incurred by the other arenas and events.

For this reason, you can't look at the CT and SEA in isolation.  Something that on its face might appear beneficial to these arenas might have a negative impact when released into the MA.  Because the MA's revenues carry the CT's and SEA's losses, things that hurt the MA ultimately hurt the CT and SEA as well.  

It all boils down to HTC making an educated guess trying to balance all these concerns.  So far, they seem to be making good guesses.  So I think it would behoove all us customers to make our suggestions for new planes by also considering the effects on the MA and the cost/benefit of making the plane itself.

You say the ETO is more popular than the PTO, and that may have been true in AW, but how do you know that translates to here? In my particular case, I find the PTO far more interesting.

Personally, I also prefer the PTO to the ETO.  My dad was a WW2 naval vet so I grew up on his stories and watching Victory at Sea.  Plus from a military history POV, the air battles in the PTO were far more complex and interesting than in the ETO, IMHO.

However, you can't argue with the popularity of the spitfire.  More AH pilots fly spits (9s and 5s combined) than anything else, by a considerable margin.  So I think AW experience is quite applicable to AH.  If AH had 2 separate, simultaneous MAs, one with spits and one without, then I would expect the following:  The spitdweebs would all flock to the arena with their plane and everybody else would follow, leaving the spit-less MA as barren as the CT usually is.  IOW, the spit-less MA would be a waste of server resources and an additional drain on HTC's revenue.

That's exactly what happened in AW when it switched from alternating ETO and PTO months and put up both arenas simultaneously.  And this happened despite AW adding its 1st new plane in many years, the N1, about the same time.  The AW N1 never saw any use until AW switched to an "all planes, all the time" set-up, when it became available in the same arena as the spit.

[spitfiremkv]

i think the naval planeset should be evolved. i was thinking to create a H2H arena with 2 opposing carrier task forces and no land. I don't know if that is possible though.

[J_A_B]

"That's exactly what happened in AW when it switched from alternating ETO and PTO months and put up both arenas simultaneously. And this happened despite AW adding its 1st new plane in many years, the N1, about the same time. The AW N1 never saw any use until AW switched to an "all planes, all the time" set-up, when it became available in the same arena as the spit."



AW's PAC arenas, while never as popular as ETO, saw plenty of use.  The only times that one of the arenas became empty was when AW's player base wasn't able to support it.  During the time you're talking about, there weren't really enough people in AW to support both setups--once AW moved to AOL, then to GS, there was never any trouble.

Still, you're entirely right that ETO is more popular than PAC; I'd say for every person who likes PAC there's 5 or so who fly ETO.

Despite that fact, I liked both setups and flew in both.  I sort of wish AH would go the same route.  

J_A_B

[Bullethead]

JAB said:

AW's PAC arenas, while never as popular as ETO, saw plenty of use.  The only times that one of the arenas became empty was when AW's player base wasn't able to support it.  During the time you're talking about, there weren't really enough people in AW to support both setups--once AW moved to AOL, then to GS, there was never any trouble.

Bah.  In pre-AOL days, there were thousands of AW pilots.  Considering in those days arena capacity was less than 100, there were way more than enough people to fill both arenas to the brim.  However, that never happened because the ETO filled up first.  Once that occurred, guys logging in would see the ETO full and the PTO empty, so would log back off, leaving the same situation to face the next guy logging in.

If you consider the AW4W on AOL situation as typical, you were either roped into AW as an AOL dweeb or were seriously into crack.  GAWD, the days of routine 20+ kill Vader hops--all the baby seals you could club for the 1st flat monthly fee in the flightsim world (aka the AOL charge, which you paid for no other reason)  

Such a situation will NEVER happen again, so has no bearing on AH.  Suffice to say that Kesmai couldn't build arenas fast enough in an era when the customer base expanded close to 5000% literally overnight.  No matter what type of arena they put up, it would instantly fill and there'd still be dweebs pounding on the doors outside.

Meanwhile, on the host that later became GS, there was AW2.  It wasn't typical, either, because its customer base was only a few hundreds, far less even than in AW DOS days.  This is the only time where there weren't enough folks to fill up both arenas at once.  But even then, it was the ETO that always got the action.

By the time GS happened and AW3 came out, AOL was letting its members out of the cage so they started moving over.  But AW3 basically never got out of its beta period.  It started with all planes, all the time so all the new planes would get tested, and this went on for about 6 months.  Then they kept everything the same and started charging for it.  So AW3 had neither alternating nor simultaneous arenas at any time, just 1 arena with all planes.

Despite that fact, I liked both setups and flew in both.  I sort of wish AH would go the same route.

Me too, except I know it wouldn't work well.  It would just decrease the diversity in the arena.  In the ETO, it would just be spits and La7s.  In the PTO, it would just be N1s.  That is, unless an RPS came along as well.  Which would also be great, provided it didn't skew things in favor of the late war as much as WB's did.  Of course, we'd then need a lot more early birds.

[sling322]

Originally posted by Bullethead

So anyway, I figure we won't see a big expansion of the PTO planeset until further down the road.  I figure it'll be part of hypothetical AH II

Wanna bet?  

Most indications that I have seen or heard seem inclined to say that the next release has a good chance of being PTO-focused.

But then again....maybe not.  We might find out in.....2 weeks?  

[Bullethead]

sling322 said:

Most indications that I have seen or heard seem inclined to say that the next release has a good chance of being PTO-focused.

That would be great.  So spill, what have you heard?