Author Topic: Why didnt B17s have 20mm?  (Read 723 times)

Offline Staga

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2002, 07:13:28 PM »
Here's nice pic from Do-24T which is having, I believe, Hispano cannon in dorsal turret.

Offline BenDover

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2002, 07:19:54 PM »
damn!! thats a big gun, and a wierd looking kid!! i don't trust him with that gun;)

interesting fact:
mk1 hispanos had a problems with the shells exploding on impact (instead of inside the plane), and some exploded just as they left the gun barrel!

Offline Nath[BDP]

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2002, 07:57:08 PM »
MK 103 was a varation version of the MK 108, both of which were 30mm. The MK 103 had a lower ROF, but a significantly higher muzzle velocity. The barrel was also lengthened in some versions.

MK 108: Length (mm)  Weight (kg)  Rounds per min Speed m/sec

              1054                 62                    660                  540

MK 103: Length (mm)  Weight (kg)  Rounds per min Speed m/sec
               
                 2285               146                 420                  720
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Offline Tony Williams

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Re: Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2002, 01:20:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Why didnt B17s have 20mm guns in the turrets instead of 50s?  The B29 had a 20mm tail gun.  Seems like they could have retrofitted the b17s to use single or double 20mm guns.


It was much more difficult to upgun a turret than it was to hang bigger guns on a fighter.

The 20mm Hispano weighed around 60 kg with belt feed against 30 kg for a .50". It also had much heavier recoil, and was a lot longer. A 20mm turret needed to be bigger overall, and that meant a major redesign to the plane to take it.

There were also problems with the reliability of the Hispano in US production, which were not solved until after the war.

Tony Williams
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Offline Tony Williams

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2002, 01:22:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
I thought 20mm rounds went farther and faster than 50 cal ?


The muzzle velocity of the Hispano and the .50" was about the same, but the .50" had a much more streamlined projectile which gave it a longer maximum range.

I doubt that this made much difference at normal combat ranges.

Tony Williams
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Offline Tony Williams

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2002, 01:25:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrLars
My step dad crewed a B25 in N Africk but he said that in the 10 or so sorties in the 75mm armed plane that they shot at many tanks but only had one kill . He stated that aiming it was very tough to do accurately and the one tank they disabled was from a very near miss. "The plane seemed to stop in mid air from the recoil", was his words and I've heard the same from other published accounts.


I don't doubt that was the impression from inside because firing the gun would have given quite a jolt to the plane. However, when you compare the weight x velocity of the shell with the weight x speed of the plane, you'll realise that the plane had about 300 times the momentum of the shell. So firing the gun would have had a negligible effect on the plane's speed.

Tony Williams
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Offline Tony Williams

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2002, 01:33:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi everyone,

by coincidence, I just today received a copy of "Rohrwaffen in Flugzeugen der Luftwaffe bis 1945 - Waffenstände" ('Barrel Armament in Aircraft of the Luftwaffe until 1934 - defensive gun positions').

 


Hi Henning,

I have always been puzzled by how slow the Luftwaffe was to fit powered turrets to their bombers. The defensive armament of their bombers in the Battle of Britain was way behind that of contemporary RAF bombers.  Even the 13mm MG 131 single turret which came later was only half-powered - a simple, single-speed motor moved the turret to about the right position, after which the gunner aimed by hand. I think only the 20mm turrets were properly powered, and they saw little use.

It was well known that hand-aimed, flexibly mounted guns were far less accurate and effective than those in a fully-powered turret. Is there any explanation for the lack of such German turrets in the book?

Tony Williams
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Offline Tony Williams

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2002, 01:35:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
MK 103 was a varation version of the MK 108, both of which were 30mm. The MK 103 had a lower ROF, but a significantly higher muzzle velocity. The barrel was also lengthened in some versions.
 


There was a bit more to it than that...the designs for the MK 108 and the MK 103 were quite different. The similarities were only in the calibre, and in the M-Geschoss HE shells both used for air-to-air fighting.

Tony Williams
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Offline fdiron

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2002, 03:08:40 AM »
I remember reading that B17 crews were filing reports about the 50 caliber AP bullets bouncing off the cowl and windshields of FW190s.  It seems to me that the USAF should had at least test fitted a B17 with a 20mm gun.  However, I imagine the same Generals who ordered bombers to continue flying without escort would have rejected retro-fitting of B17s with cannons due to the time element.

Offline HoHun

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2002, 03:22:35 PM »
Hi Tony,

>Is there any explanation for the lack of such German turrets in the book?

It's actually more like a magazine - it's a "Waffen Revue" volume, if you're familiar with them. (The author of the "Waffenstände" volume is Manfred Griehl.)

It does not mention any reason for the lack of powered and manned turrets in German bombers, except for the volume poblems.

However, reading between the lines, I think the Luftwaffe generally thought the value of defensive armament to be limited, and that they had achieved a good compromise with regard to weight and survivability in their bombers. Remember that while the British were highly enthusiastic about the value of powered turrets before the war, the "Battle of Heligoland Bay" showed that their bombers were easy prey for day fighters nevertheless. The RAF withdrew their bombers to night attacks, and of course, the Luftwaffe had learned that bombers were highly vulnerable, too.

>Even the 13mm MG 131 single turret which came later was only half-powered - a simple, single-speed motor moved the turret to about the right position, after which the gunner aimed by hand. I think only the 20mm turrets were properly powered, and they saw little use.

Thanks for the clarification - Griehl had listed that point, but not explained it well enough for me to understand :-)

Anyway, it seems that the Germans mostly skipped the powered and manned turret in favour of the powered remotely-controlled turret similar to the B-29's armament. Messerschmitt, Arado and and the Luftfahrtgerätebau Berlin each developed such a system, and AEG actually built a variety of different systems for the task. However, all of these systems seem to have had problems with accuracy, and they weren't ready for production before the German bomber programs were cancelled.

The reason for skipping the manned power turret probably was the 1939's "Bomber B" specification which called for a medium bomber with a pressure cabin. As with the B-29, remotely controlled turrets were the only way to achieve reliable pressurization, so they were in the specification, too. The Bomber B programme lead to the Ju 288 (found to be superior to the competing Do 317 and Fw 191), but all three Bomber B aircraft were to utilize the Jumo 222 which was a failure, and so the entire programme was cancelled in early 1944.

The He 177, the moderately successful Bomber A, was canceled in July 1944, too, pretty much eliminating the need for bomber armament that way. All future plans for bombers were based on jet engines and using high speed as their primary defense so that comparatively light armament would have sufficed. The Ju 287 for example was to be armed with a remotely controlled twin turret only.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline MiloMorai

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50 vs 20
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2002, 05:21:51 PM »
Both the YB-40(Fortress) and XB-41(Liberator) were duds, for once the other bombers dropped their bombs they could not keep up with the empty bombers.

*fixed error
« Last Edit: March 27, 2002, 06:12:15 AM by MiloMorai »

Offline Staga

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2002, 06:48:11 PM »
HL-131 tail-turret prototype for He-177:

Offline fdiron

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2002, 08:32:59 PM »
YB40 was the gunship version of the B17.

Offline Toad

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2002, 09:58:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams


I don't doubt that was the impression from inside because firing the gun would have given quite a jolt to the plane. However, when you compare the weight x velocity of the shell with the weight x speed of the plane, you'll realise that the plane had about 300 times the momentum of the shell. So firing the gun would have had a negligible effect on the plane's speed.


My Father ferried a brand new B-25H from Savannah, Georgia to Nadzab, New Guinea. The other pilot was a man name Charlie Knight, my father's best friend through all of pilot training.  My father went into the 345th BG/501st Sq, which was equipped with C/D models. Charlie went to the 500th which was equipped with G/H models (75mm).

My father's memory is that Charlie told him shooting the big gun dropped the airspeed about 10-15 mph on a "gun run" against shipping. He said this would be with several shots fired.

Charlie did not survive the war. He launched as a "weather ship" into stormy skies with low cielings prior to a mission. He did not return. His aircraft was found crashed in the New Guinea jungle after the war.


Charlie Knight.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Tony Williams

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2002, 11:52:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


My father's memory is that Charlie told him shooting the big gun dropped the airspeed about 10-15 mph on a "gun run" against shipping. He said this would be with several shots fired.

Charlie Knight.


I've no argument with that - the cumulative effect of several shots in quick succession would certainly be noticed. I was merely responding to the old myth that the plane stopped in midair whenever it fired :)

Tony Williams
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