Author Topic: Why didnt B17s have 20mm?  (Read 724 times)

Offline fdiron

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« on: March 25, 2002, 08:14:51 AM »
Why didnt B17s have 20mm guns in the turrets instead of 50s?  The B29 had a 20mm tail gun.  Seems like they could have retrofitted the b17s to use single or double 20mm guns.

Offline Jester

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2002, 08:59:13 AM »
Most likely "Weight". The 17 didn't have the horses the 29 did so they had to take into account the weight of the gun and ammo for a 20mm vs. twin .50cal.'s.

Also I imagine they looked at the superior range of the .50cal vs. that of the 20mm.
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Offline fdiron

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2002, 10:21:32 AM »
I thought 20mm rounds went farther and faster than 50 cal ?

Offline Karnak

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2002, 10:44:30 AM »
The British were working on mounting Hispanos in turrets for the Lancaster for amny years.  They finally got one that passed all required tests just as the war ended.

The Hispano, which the British and Americans both used as their aerial 20mm cannon, was simply too heavy to be readily mounted in a turret.
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Offline Jester

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2002, 11:14:23 AM »
The .50cal while not having the hitting power of the 20mm it does have a longer and flatter trajectory and a higher rate of fire so making it better for A2A gunnery.

Karnak, you sure about the Hispanos? I thought US 20mm'ers were versions of the Swedish Orlekion 20mm.
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Offline popeye

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2002, 11:19:17 AM »
At last!  An explaination for the AH B-17's killing power....the top secret 20mm field mod.


Sorry, HTC....someone had to do it.   :)
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Offline Staga

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2002, 11:39:40 AM »
Oerlikon ain't no Swedish but Swiss and afair MG/FF was born as a Oerlikon...  
Hispano-Suiza HS-404 20mm cannon was Spanish/Swiss designation thought it was made in France before adopted by Brits.

Offline Replicant

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2002, 12:46:32 PM »
There were 20mm cannons fitted to the B17.  Some BGs had a single 20mm cannon fitted in place of the rear 2 x .50cal during 'field modifications'.  The advantage of this was that it could take out incoming aircraft at a longer range and it's large bulky appearance also scared the enemy in not taking that approach.  The disadvantage of the rear 20mm is that it didn't have such a wide firing arc like the .50cals.  I would post an image but my scanner isn't working!  :(

One B17 also used a 20mm forward cannon in place of the chin guns - the 20mm was fitted through the front of the bomb aimer glass.  This proved unreliable and caused excessive stress to the forward fuselage compartment and therefore was withdrawn from service rather than endanger the aircraft.

I did suggest to HiTech quite sometime ago about incorporating the rear 20mm cannon to the B17 as a perk option.  Who knows!

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Offline Fishu

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2002, 12:47:14 PM »
Least place you want to add weight to in B-17, is it's tail.

Adding bigger 20mm guns in the tail would mean excessive changes in the structure and due to bigger size would have much more limited traverse/pitch

B-17 is tail heavy plane.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2002, 12:49:49 PM by Fishu »

Offline Ripsnort

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2002, 12:48:21 PM »
Reliabilty was an issue early in production too.

Offline BenDover

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2002, 01:25:12 PM »
didn't some guy in the pacific have a 75mm(or was it a 37mm?) cannon fitted to the front of a b17?

Offline MrLars

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2002, 02:48:01 PM »
My step dad crewed a B25 in N Africk but he said that in the 10 or so sorties in the 75mm armed plane that they shot at many tanks but only had one kill . He stated that aiming it was very tough to do accurately and the one tank they disabled was from a very near miss. "The plane seemed to stop in mid air from the recoil", was his words and I've heard the same from other published accounts.

Offline HoHun

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2002, 04:34:58 PM »
Hi everyone,

by coincidence, I just today received a copy of "Rohrwaffen in Flugzeugen der Luftwaffe bis 1945 - Waffenstände" ('Barrel Armament in Aircraft of the Luftwaffe until 1934 - defensive gun positions').

It seems that the Luftwaffe had two reasons to adopt larger calibres: One was the extended range 20 mm guns gave them, the other was the greater effectiveness against heavy fighters.

Since bullets fired rearwards from a moving platform have a slower "airspeed" than those fired forward, a bomber's defensive guns tended to out-range the attacking fighters' weaponry. As protection against frontal attacks however, the Luftwaffe relied on 20 mm cannon with relatively little ammunition: They'd have little time to fire, but the attacker had to be engaged at long range to deter him. The 20 mm nose guns preferably should have a wide downward field of fire, too, to enable them to double as ground attack weapons.

With regard to the weapons: As early as 1938 work had begun on providing 20 mm defensive guns with the explicit goal of increasing the firing range. However, against the fighters of the Battle of Britain era, the Luftwaffe considered 7.92 mm and 13 mm machine guns effective, though apparently they weren't happy about the limited field of fire of their positions. (I'd say that was partly due to the lack of tail turrets, and partly due to the limitations of hand-operated weapon mountings.)

Against heavy fighters (Beaufighter, Mosquito etc.), even a 4 x 13 mm battery was considered inadequate, and 2 x 20 mm were demanded for heavy bombers. The Heinkel He 177 nevertheless had to make do with a single hand-operated gun due to the lack of space in the aircraft's tail.

Coming back to the B-17, I think the reason that they weren't converted to 20 mm armament simply was the lack of time for that. The USAAF had been firmly convinced that the "Flying Fortress" would be able to defend itself against any fighter attack, and had the B-17F flown as Luftwaffe bomber in the Battle of Britain, the result would undoubtly have proved them right. The problem was that by 1943, the fighters had improved firepower and protection, too, and the destroyers made it even worse for the USAAF.

As it was, the first Schweinfurth raid of August 1943 shook the USAAF's confidence for the first time, and the second probably shattered it in October of the same year. Only now the USAAF had reason to think about substantially increased armament, but the time needed to get a new weapon into mass production (or erect a new plant for an existing weapon) and for broad-scale introduction of this new weapon probably would have been at least 12 months. The USAAF didn't have this time, and the obvious solution was to provide long range fighter escort, for which in October 1943 there were two promising candidates: the P-38 and the P-51.  

What would the USAAF have done without the long-range fighter option? I think they'd most probably have found it easier to mount more 0.50" gun positions instead of going to a larger calibre. The YB-40 had an additional dorsal durret and twin guns in each waist position, and perhaps this would have been copied for the B-17 bomber squadrons, which of course would have suffered from an impact on payload and range.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline SageFIN

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2002, 06:19:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andijg
The .50cal while not having the hitting power of the 20mm it does have a longer and flatter trajectory and a higher rate of fire so making it better for A2A gunnery.


Uhm, the 20mms come in many flavors and the Hispano (and whatever it's designation was in the US... M2 or smthing) has quite similar trajectory and is arguably better for A2A gunnery.

Offline Staga

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Why didnt B17s have 20mm?
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2002, 07:03:52 PM »
I belive Dornier Do-24T, Dutch version of that flying boat, was one of the first planes having a Hispano cannon in dorsal turret after the wing. German versions were having usually MG151/20 or Mk-103 cannon instead.

Huh Mk-103 30mm??