Author Topic: On Killshooter vs. PNG (Read 546 times)

DamnedBuzzard · « **on:** March 25, 2002, 09:06:20 AM »

There's been a good deal of discussion lately among the Damned about killshooter and other options possible. I figured I'd bring it here and get some other opinions.

I don't care for killshooter, not because it affects me much (I've only shot myself down once in nearly a year playin AH) but because i hate the concept of smart bullets in general.

Alternatives we've discussed include no damage to anyone from friendly fire and the old DOS Air Warrior solution, PNG. I don't care for the vanishing bullet solution either because when a bullet hits something it should hit and have affect, not pass harmlessly through because the target was unintended.

Here's the way PNG (Persona Non Grata) worked in AW for those unfamiliar. When bullets hit a plane they damaged or kilt it. That's real. No smart bullet that kills the shooter if he hits a friendly, no vanishing bullet that passes harmlessly through a friendly. If you kilt 2 friendlies in a 24 hour period you were denied ammo for the next 24 hours. (obviously both those numbers are adjustable) AW did allow you to switch sides once if you went PNG and allow you to have ammo in your new country.

I would like to see AH adopt something similar to PNG and dump the killshooter. I would propose a 24 hour period without ammo for killing two friendlies in a 24 hour period. I would make that universal, no country switching to get ammo. I would also like to see HT set it so that if you were kilt by friendly fire that death registered as a landed hop rather than a death on your score.

I think a PNG situation would have some serious and positive affects on MA play. Mainly I think the 10 on 1's that everyone hates so much would whither and die. I think there would be a great deal fewer of those guys that come blastin in behind you with all guns blazing while you're saddled up 300 yds off an enemies 6 tryin to steal yer kill.

I see a lot of talk on these boards about the want of and need for "realism" in the game. Killshooter is the most unreal feature here. Bullets should kill what they hit. Folks should pay a price for shootin friendlies.

Flame away my friends.

Thrawn · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2002, 09:27:29 AM »

So if a bunch of countrymates decide they don't like me, they can each kill be once every 24 hrs? I don't like that idea. I can see it being totally abused.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2002, 10:54:23 AM »

There's a reason AW did away with PNG and implemented a variation of killshooter. What you're suggesting would be tantamount to regressing to a system that was considered ineffective and was hence eliminated, Buzzard. Killshooter was and is the solution to PNG, not vice-versa.

-- Todd/Leviathn

popeye · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2002, 11:05:33 AM »

"Mainly I think the 10 on 1's that everyone hates so much would whither and die."

Yeah, never saw that in DOS AW.

5190

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2002, 11:23:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
There's a reason AW did away with PNG and implemented a variation of killshooter. What you're suggesting would be tantamount to regressing to a system that was considered ineffective and was hence eliminated, Buzzard. Killshooter was and is the solution to PNG, not vice-versa.

-- Todd/Leviathn

That's a whole other discussion Todd but I'll be glad to join in.

PNG was discontinued in AW shortly after AW went free on AOL. The primary contributory factors were "free AW", 5 screen names per account, and all the kids on AOL. Those were the reasons PNG was, in your words, "ineffective". I have always argued that it was more a case of Kesmai takin th easy way out rather than workin harder to police the miscreants. As a point in Kesmai's defense, AOL may have made it impossible for them to correct the fraggin problem with enforcement. Neither you nor I know that for sure. But AH doesn't have any of the factors that made PNG a problem to deal with as it was on AOL.

PNG worked well in AW DOS for years. "Most" players there were more mature that the free AOL horde. Few had more than one account. I think those attributes are similar to the AH crowd.

Don't get me wrong Todd, killshooter or PNG doesn't/ didn't affect me directly very often in the form of penalty incurred. I am even able to avoid most of the 10 on 1's that I hear so much squeakin about. I don't mean I don't get gangbanged now and then but SA goes a long way to minimizing that.

Perhaps PNG is a regression. That's not necessarily bad. I think it's a better solution than killshooter. Just MNSHO.

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2002, 11:35:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by popeye
"Mainly I think the 10 on 1's that everyone hates so much would whither and die."

Yeah, never saw that in DOS AW.

5190

Popeye I don't know if that was meant to be sarcastic or not so I'll respond as if it were.

Fact is while a 2 or 3 on 1 was pretty common in DOS so was the much vaunted 1v1. More a factor of small crowds than anything else. That doesn't mean PNG was not a factor at all.

I flew DOS from late 1992 when the SVGA box came out till DOS was killed in 1996 and I can tell ya that other than th furballs around N11 or at 15/ 16 in the PAC arena I sure don't recall any 10v1's. Doesn't mean it never happened of course but it was infrequent enough that it wasn't memorable, for me anyway. Of course it could be that my memory is failing in my old age too.

Perhaps I'm just phrasing my argument wrong. Let's just say that I hate the whole idea of "magic bullets" that turn around and kill th guy that fired them and I think punishing the guy who kills a friendly is a better alternative.

Yeager · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2002, 11:39:18 AM »

Killshooter prevents idiots from being amazinhunks and I submit this is a very important feature in any online game.

Killshooter is also the straightest way to keep things moving uninterrupted. Anytime you start putting a system in place that arbitrarily prevents people from participating in the game you are going to kill subscriptions.

HTC quite simply isnt gonna change the way killshooter operates.
Its either on or off and in the MA turning it off would be a huge mistake.

For SEs, where more serious attitudes are the norm, killshooter off is certainly feasible. Same with friendly collisions. But in the MA having either of these options turned off is asking for big trouble.

Gypsy Baron · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2002, 11:43:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
So if a bunch of countrymates decide they don't like me, they can each kill be once every 24 hrs? I don't like that idea. I can see it being totally abused.

Perhaps rightfully so...

I'm all for a PNG implementation as opposed to
kill-shooter.

I do so miss those days of yore when a good justified
dweeb hunt was possible!

hitech · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2002, 12:00:37 PM »

Funny I rember png differently. About once every month some how when kite and I were winging together I would nail him by accitdent.

Used to real make me mad when I could no longer fly on a sunday night with him.

Other huge bug exploits in PNG. Rember being able to up, drop bombs as a squad was taking off? Kill the hole squad , but you were killed first so you didn't go PNG?

Rember being able to ping some one, then crash before he did so you wouldn't go png?

popeye · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2002, 12:20:07 PM »

Heh, I remember seeing Subbie get accidentally pinged by a newbie, then taunting the guy before she deliberately augered to make him PNG.

Ahhhh....the Good Old Days.

CptTrips · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2002, 12:21:10 PM »

I don't mind so much taking the damage, but the guy that cuts in front of me should take the same damage.

There needs to be a balance of incentives. He needs to be given a reason NOT to just cut in front of me without thinking as much as I need to be given a reason to check my line of fire. IMHO.

Wab

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2002, 12:47:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Funny I rember png differently. About once every month some how when kite and I were winging together I would nail him by accitdent.

Used to real make me mad when I could no longer fly on a sunday night with him.

Other huge bug exploits in PNG. Rember being able to up, drop bombs as a squad was taking off? Kill the hole squad , but you were killed first so you didn't go PNG?

Rember being able to ping some one, then crash before he did so you wouldn't go png?

If I remember correctly ( my advanced years bringing that concept into question) I only went PNG 2 or 3 times. Yea it made me mad...but mostly at myself for killin friendlies.

On the bomb thing I truly don't remember it. Course I've never been much for bombs and you always were more diabolical than me

I never sat in a tank and kilt guys takin off the carriers

I do remember augerin a time or two so as not to get credit for pingin up a friendly in case he got kilt. I remember a lot of folks, me included, askin others to be carful not to get kilt cause they/ I had put a few rounds in them by accident and didn't want to get PNG'd.

As popeye mentions downthread I do remember augerin when some dweeb pinged me so as to help him down the road to PNG.

Havin said all that though killshooter can be gamed too. The NME that locks on the tail of a friendly in a furball and doesn't shoot him in the hopes that his friends comin to his aid will hit the good guy and get killshootered is one example I've seen (and heard folks admit it) in AH.

qts · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2002, 01:12:05 PM »

The other evening I was manning an ack, firing like mad at an enemy, when a friendly zommed across my line of fire very close. I don't think I hit him, but it's entirely possible. Later, I took a ship's gun and started bombarding a town; it's entirely possible I might have damaged a friendly from explosion damage or a GV might be hit directly - but at such great range you can't tell. Any new method has got to cope with this.

Mathman · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2002, 01:16:39 PM »

This topic is discussed at least once a week on this board. So, I will let my signature state my thoughts on it.

DamnedBuzzard · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2002, 02:36:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mathman
This topic is discussed at least once a week on this board. So, I will let my signature state my thoughts on it.

Does that mean your opinion on the subject is as much in error as your signature file or that you don't understand either ?

One would think a teacher who wanted to use big words to paraphrase a colloquialism could at least use the right big words.