Author Topic: More for the buff boys  (Read 274 times)

Offline Vulcan

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More for the buff boys
« on: July 05, 2000, 07:29:00 PM »
Was watching some gun-camera / interview toejam on buffs in late WWII again.

Interesting stuff:
- showed a 17 getting sprayed with 20mm, guys it wasn't falling apart
- talked about several 17s that got isolated and engaged with enemy fighters for up to 45 minutes
- showed a Liberator taking an 88mm to the wing root (ouch!)
- convergance of the fighters on the buffs was a lot slower than we experience
- showed several 109 gun cams right up the buffs 6 spraying away happily with no concerns about the tail gunners

Seemed a little different to our experience. Maybe the buffs should be tuffer, but the guns on the buffs dispersed or toned down a bit. Seems like a B17 wasn't a one pass kill as many of us can do, and that the gunners couldn't hit toejam and LW pilots happily drove right up the 17s 6 for a firing run.

-vlkn- in

Offline fdiron

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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2000, 09:25:00 PM »
Yeah, if a luftwaffe pilot found a lone bomber they gladly attacked it rather than a formation of bombers.  Being a gunner on a bomber must have been a tough job I believe.  Aerial gunnery in real life was probably much much more complex and difficult than we have here in AH.  It was probably much harder to aim a gun in a bomber in real life due to vibrations, air currents, and recoil.  It really depends on the skill level of the gunner I think.  As for 20mm and 30mm not killing bombers in 1 pass, thats understandable.  It depends on where u hit the bomber.  A bomber has alot of empty volume inside of it, a 30mm shell could simply pass through the waist area of a B17 and not do much critical damage.  Of course we have probably all seen the picture of the B17 with its tail nearly severed by a mid-air collision with a 109.  This shows that unless hit in the right spot, bombers could continue to be airworthy.  I have seen the gun cam of the B24 hit in the wing root by flak, it is really spectacular (the color version).  I don't think that any of the crew was able to bail out, probably due to the g forces.  After the war a study was done on bomber defensives.  It was concluded that in order to shoot down a single enemy fighter, that 5 B17s needed to have 5 guns firing on the target with 50% accuracy.  Of course in real life B17s averaged only 1 pair of guns on the target with only 10% accuracy.  As for the convergence being slow in late war bomber/fighter combat, thats the opposite of what I have noted.  Even with piston engined 109s and 190s, head on convergence was usually around 600mph, too fast for the bombers to get off more than 1 or 2 shots.  With the addition of the 262 to the luftwaffe,bomber gunners complained that they didnt even have time to line up the fighter in their sights.

Greg 'wmutt' Cook

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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2000, 03:06:00 AM »
We have this tendency to judge Bombers by fighter standards when it comes to what kind of damage is most troublesome to them.  In a fighter, that is flown on the edge of it's flight envlope durring it's primary mission, things like skin deformation and support spars would have a very adverse effect on it's ability to manuver and pull high G's while retaining all it's parts.  
Bombers,on the other hand, don't have to load up their wings, or be very streamlined to fly along at 200 knts. So while things like support spars are still important, there is still a chance that the ship will be able to fly for some time with them partialy cut.  
This is why you see the RAF using AP rounds most of the time on their cannon armed birds.  The RAF was for the most part employed defending England from the LW, and that means as a primary goal,they had to destroy bombers.  Bombers can shrug off a lot of structural damage, but punch a hole in an engine block or two, and down they come.
I would like to see some kind of 'dynamic' damage system in a flight sim.  So if you take damage to a wing spar it gets weakened so that the next time you Pull some G's it might snap.
As to the Bombes in the game, I think theyare about where they needto be to keep the playable balance.  I have been done in more than once by a 'lone gunman' making a few well flown passes.

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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
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Offline fd ski

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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2000, 09:41:00 AM »
3 weeks ago ... WB convention..

One of our beloved LW weenies asked Mr. Stigler ( JG26 and Jv44 ... yup 262s ) how many 30mm's to take down B17.

Answer ?

"6 to 8 30mms to cut the B17s wing in a half"

Boy, was he suprized  


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Offline mx22

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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2000, 09:56:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski:
3 weeks ago ... WB convention..

One of our beloved LW weenies asked Mr. Stigler ( JG26 and Jv44 ... yup 262s ) how many 30mm's to take down B17.

Answer ?

"6 to 8 30mms to cut the B17s wing in a half"

Boy, was he suprized  




LMAO fd,

I would give a lot to look at the face of that Lufwaffle boy after he heard that

mx22

Offline Wraith

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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2000, 11:45:00 AM »
"showed several 109 gun cams right up the buffs 6 spraying away happily with no concerns about the tail gunners"

Err.. I guess because after the first burst the tail gunner was dead? Heeehee.. that's what this game needs... killable gunners!  
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Offline popeye

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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2000, 11:50:00 AM »
We have killable gunners.

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Offline Soulyss

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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2000, 01:29:00 PM »
Didn't the LW gather evidence from downed B17's during the war that at least in the conventional attack run from behind the bombers that it took on average of 20 20mm cannon rounds to inflict fatal damage on a B17?.  I'll root around in my books here and try and find it exactly but I seem to remember reading it somewheres.    Also when the attacks started coming from teh front that number seemed to drop to around 4-5 owing I suppose to the lack of frontal armor in the early B17 models.  

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[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 07-06-2000).]
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2000, 02:39:00 PM »
I've also read that the Luftwaffe calculated an average of 20 20mm hits to bring down a B17. They also estimated their pilots were getting hits with 2% of rounds fired, meaning an average of 1000 20mm rounds per bomber.
They reckoned 3 30mm rounds to be sufficent.

-=Silo=-

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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2000, 02:58:00 PM »
Just to be annoying, ill ask what consititutes fatal damage in RL and in AH?

Does downing a bomber = blowing off a wing or forcing it to ditch, maybe RTB?

I would contend that we like to see stuff blow up or shear off entire wings in AH. Yet when I read books, a bomber going down because of engine failure = downing one  

We should clear this up. Personally i like the deadly otto as it is now. I dont know how tuff the buffs are now, but i would assume they should reflect real life hardness.

Because of the deadly turrets, i get perverse pleasure from using attacks high quarter head on attacks on bombers. Sometimes i find i need to make several passes and even run out of ammo (dedicated 109 pilot   )

Its so much better than what i am used to from other games. I guess cause im kinda new im still in the gee-whiz-cool phase, but attacking bombers has never been this fun.

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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2000, 03:22:00 PM »
Heh, -=Silo=-, there aren't ottos.    Thats the pilot jumping from gun to gun to defend his plane.  Or the gunner if he has one.  But no AI.

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-=Silo=-

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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2000, 03:23:00 PM »
Karnak I know   Just been calling them as such for sooo long, hard to kick the habit