Author Topic: Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?  (Read 628 times)

Offline streakeagle

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« on: September 17, 2001, 09:31:00 AM »
It is a given that a computer game will never perfectly simulate flight or combat. But if a significant number of aspects that can be modeled accurately are not for the sake of "gameplay", why bother trying to "simulate" anything at all?

Saying that killshooter needs to be on because people will cheat is indicative of a much bigger problem: In reality there is no score besides living or dying, nor is there any way to "cheat" beyond making sure you have all the advantages you can get before you fight. A German pilot might defect to the allies, but they would not let him fly for them. He might turn out to be a spy and shoot down a bunch of friendlies and steal his plane. Unfortunately, in our game, it is not fun to limit people to flying only for one side, which of course would leave the door open for people to cheat. At the same time it is utterly unrealistic for your own shots to hit and/or kill yourself, or even to be harmless to friendlies. Friendly fire is an important consideration in real combat, and I am arguing that any game that does not accurately portray the problems of friendly fire is just that: only a game.

This leads to the issue of icons and range indication. Of course the computer screen does not mimic the abilities of human vision. But, if everyone faces the same restriction, then any limitations imposed by the screen resolution, depth perception, and field of view are moot. Icons are necessary to promote gameplay and have nothing to do with simulation. I have played plenty of sims without icons, including this one. The results are far more realistic despite all of the obvious limitations of monitors. Face it: icons have little to do with compensating for the limitations of monitors. Even Chuck Yeager with his awesome eyesight and situational awareness would not reap the benefits the icon system provides: perfect ID of aircraft type and nationality with precision ranging. Not even the APG-70 and APG-71 series radars (the biggest and best we have) can do this reliably.

Consider the stategic elements of this game: I can wipe out a base and take it purely with a minimum of airpower: a loaded out fighter and a C-47. Show me one instance where any number of P-47s combined with C-47s ever took an enemy position during WWII. The reality of air combat is that it has little direct impact on the war, except for close air support during key battles. P-51s and Bf109s duking it out at 25000 feet does not move battle lines. It took years of B-17s and B-24s bombing by day and Lancasters bombing by night to have any noticable impact on German front line combat units. Once again, any game which would allow a war to be fought and won in a few hours with merely aircraft is just that.

Of course there are plenty of other compromises I could debate here. Just look at the long list of threads where numerous people debate gameplay versus realism, such as radar and damage modeling. Do killshooter, icons, and other similar features enhance gameplay? Of course they do. Will I ever call any game that uses these features a sim? No way.

In reality, pilots flew because it was their job and they wanted to do their part to protect their respective homes. They might be competitive about who got the most kills, but their overall motivation had little to do with scores. They seldom observed any positive results in the overall war due to their individual efforts and they didn't need any strategic elements to motivate them to keep flying. The reward for a long day of flying was to be alive. If it was a really good day, their buddies were still alive as well. To them, it wasn't "mindless" furballing, it was do or die. If P-51 pilots did it right, the B-17s hit their targets and might make it home to do it again. If the Bf109 pilots did it right, they might stop the B-17s and still have a home and a family when they landed. There is simply no way to fully simulate this, nor is it fun to model it in a game. Who wants to have only one life and death in a game? That is reality and it affects the decisions of everyone who actually engages in combat.

In its MA format, AH is at best a game that happens to use reasonably accurate flight and ballistic modeling. On a relative scale, AH is closer to being a sim than most games. In its CT format, even closer. But I don't see the point of arguing to make this game more "realistic", it is simply not a valid argument for any game feature. Before you suggest something or start a major flame-war, ask yourself: would this make AH more fun to play? Remember, it has to be more fun for the majority, not just you    ;)

Of course, everyone has a different idea of what is fun. It is up to HTC to decide the type of fun they are going to sell. It is up to us to decide  whether to buy what they are selling. At least with the CT, they appear to be listening to those screaming for realism. But even the realism fanatics like myself can't agree on what is realistic.

P.S. Any game in which the P-51D doesn't dominate the skies can't be realistic, can it?    ;) Funny how range and speed are the critical parameters when fighting an offensive in reality, whereas rate of climb and turn rate dominate the MA.

P.P.S. I did not change the content of this post in any way, I only added bold to highlight my real points in the middle of all my rambling, and of course I added this sentence  :p

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: streakeagle ]
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Offline iculus

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
I love the airplanes, I like learning the tactics.  AH does a great job simulating this, even though the context is different in the MA.

<S>IC

Offline lazs1

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
I think that they are in it for the money and fear that 20 minute preflights and full scale maps and 1 year tours without ever seeing an enemy and 8 hour flights and planned missions that do nothing might scare off customers.

I think that they have reached a pretty good balance of realism and gameplay.   Scenarios and the CT show how delicate this balance is.   minor changes, which may or may not be more "realistic" result in lack of player interest.

Oh, and the P51 does dominate the skys so long as it stays way up there by itself and doesn't try to come down and fite.

And.. it can be argued that the point of the 51's escorting the buffs was not so much so that the 17's could drop bombs but so that the LW was forced to fite and therefore be destroyed.
lazs

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]

Offline popeye

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
Uh...okay, it's a game.
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Offline Russian

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2001, 11:41:00 AM »
Some old wise man said “ Mumble, mumble realism, mumble”  :)

Offline Grimm

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2001, 11:46:00 AM »
I would call it an Air Combat Simulation, Using planes modeled after their WW2 counterparts.  

Its not a WW2 Simulation as many wish it was.  Sometimes players and host can recreate some historic situations but thats as close as it comes.

Offline Maverick

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
I recall HT himself referring to this as a GAME based on WW2 aircombat.

Play the game. If it doesn't suit your "cup o' tea" either move to another one that does or make your own.

Sheesh have fun!

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Offline Toad

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
So the point you were trying to make is?

(25 words or less please.)

Thx.
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Offline AKDejaVu

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2001, 01:13:00 PM »
WW2 was not fun.  Making a game that accurately simulated it would not be fun.  At some point you have to make concessions.

HTC has focused on flying aircraft and shooting others down.  They make concessions that promote that behavior.

I don't think its really any more complex than that.

AKDejaVu

PS.. didn't read past the first paragraph... if you want to know why, read through any "beaten to death" thread and you'll see some form of the same thing posted and debated to death.

Offline Lizard3

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle:
Show me one instance where any number of P-47s combined with C-47s ever took an enemy position during WWII. The reality of air combat is that it has little direct impact on the war, except for close air support during key battles.

Sure thing. The Germans did it in Norway. They took a whole town also. With a couple Ju52's and a couple low on fuel Me110's.

Ask a veteran of the Normandy hedgerow fighting just what they thought of the P-47's and the pilots that flew them. They could call them in for strikes within 200 meters of there position. Many many owe there lives to them.

As to the P-51 dominating the skies. Wake up! It was a great high altitude interceptor. It was not the end all be all fighter.

Offline streakeagle

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2001, 03:00:00 PM »
Obviously the length of my post clouded my tone and points. I have read post after post arguing about what should be modeled and what shouldn't be based on realism. After considering all the recurring arguments, I concluded that arguing based on realism is out of the question, a total waste of time. Enjoy the game. If you think something would make the game better, suggest it. But arguing about realism and insulting everyone who disagrees with your opinion is just plane silly (pun intended   :)).

As for any responses to my comment on the P-51, have you ever heard of sarcasm, irony, and humor? Hook, line, and sinker   ;)

I love P-51s, but in no way shape or form think they are the best at everything. They are underpowered, underarmed, and far from being the most maneuverable. But they sure do look and sound cool   :) As for dominating the sky as long as it stays high up? Dominating the sky means controlling ALL of the airspace, not just above 20000 ft. The P-51D was good for what it was optimized for: the highest possible speed over the longest possible range at bomber escort altitudes with a nice all-round view to boot (lesson learned the hard way: trade a little speed for visibility   :))

I did not say P-47s or any other planes used for close air support were ineffective. In fact, that is the one case where air power has an immediate impact on the outcome of a war. But normally, one sortie in one firefight does not win a war or even win a battle. Sustained combined arms operations with each component doing its part wins both battles and wars. With its focus on air combat, AH cannot reflect the far larger parts played by the land and naval forces without using a ton of AI. So there is no way to model a "realistic" war based primarily on the results of air combat. As I have finally accepted, in the end this is nothing more (and nothing less) than a great game. The aircraft and tactics used may be remarkably similar, but they will never truly replicate more than a handful of the factors that determine the outcome of real air combat much less a real war.

As for the Germans taking over a town with a couple of Ju52s, I guess you got me by finding an example   ;) Though I specified P-47s and C-47s :P Do I need to be more specific about what an enemy position is? Determined armed resistance, i.e. not France   ;) For those that don't get it: more sarcasm.

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: streakeagle ]
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Offline streakeagle

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs1:
it can be argued that the point of the 51's escorting the buffs was not so much so that the 17's could drop bombs but so that the LW was forced to fite and therefore be destroyed.

While tying up and destroying the LW was an added bonus, the B-17s and B-24s were sitting on the ground or only making short hops until long range escorts arrived. Earlier deep raids without them were far too costly. P-47s and P-38s did a good (arguably better) job of destroying the LW, but they didn't have the range to follow the bombers deep into Germany from Britain. Of course Britain's solution wasn't to build a specialized escort fighter, they simply bombed at night  ;) Arguably a more efficient solution. There can be no mistake what the P-51s mission in life was. Eventually, they performed the same task over Japan: fly a long way at high altitude to protect B-29s.
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Offline Scootter

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2001, 03:37:00 PM »
I have never called it a Sim. I think a Sim would be very Boreing, this is a game based of WWII aircraft with as much balance as poss. Nothing more or less, enjoy, learn, get sweaty, and have fun.

I still don't understand why so many don't get it??

Offline Rude

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
Point is...it is not a perfect world...quit your whinin and have fun.

51's rule :)

Offline Pepe

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Why bother calling the HTC MA a sim?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2001, 04:33:00 PM »
Guilty as charged   :(

Nice post Streakeagle

Cheers

Pepe