mrfish, your opinion needed on this physical issue.

[miko2d]

mrfish,
 Please kindly comment on the following thread and article.

Antigravity thread on AGW

EDIT: Of course, anyone's opinion welcome!

 miko

[Udie]

Originally posted by miko2d
mrfish,
 Please kindly comment on the following thread and article.

Antigravity thread on AGW

 miko

 You're theory seems sound enough to me....er... wait I dropped out of school.  What were you talking about?


 BTW,  I hope it's "A" too

[mrfish]

well they certainly don't give much info. the guy spins a disk and the acceleration  due to gravity is diminished? umm...

i can't readily see how it would work. even "gravitons" are theoritcal and we don't have a collider with sufficient enough energy to really study them. (hint hint funding funding) it seems like you might have to understand their interactions to manipulate them - if you believe in that sort of thing at all anyway .

hate to be one of the oppressive community keeping them down but "show me the money" publish something. perhaps a field is created by the device, but that isn't defying gravity, it's just presenting a force opposite to the direction of gravity. that could be done with air or a hundred other things.

i mean my weight on a scale would be less if i was holding onto a pull-up bar. the sole reason is a force 'tension' in my arms acting opposite the force 'weight'. it doesn't mean gravity is accelerating my mass any less it just means the force on the scale is diminished by the tension opposite it. how is he measuring the weight of an object in midair anyway? just curious...

i would like to see how he measure the actual acceleration of gravity as being decreased. it sounds to me like he just measured the weight of an object after the device was on. since weight=mg that's reasonable in a lot of situations but still falls short here. that doesn't rule out the possibility that he was just directing an opposite force and so it's nothing all that new. or for that matter maybe his machine affects mass? now that's far-fetched but it demonstrates how little his results tell us.

in short, weight isn't a tell all measurement in this experiment. he needs to show more conclusively that acceleration is less. i know they go hand in hand but hopefully my pull-up example shows why.

it would be tremendous if he was actually manipulating gravity but it's pretty unlikely. maybe i missed something in the argument somewhere but it isnt very convincing. i'm more interested in their work on new spacecraft engines really. the new thing is to design an engine that tosses out small amounts of mass but at really insanely high velocities. that's probably a bit more promising than this.

[miko2d]

you might have to understand their interactions to manipulate them
 I am not sure that understanding is a requirement for maniplation.
 We may not necessarily understand what light is now - that did not prevent us from using torches since the neanderthal times...

On the other hand the way politics and economics are handled surely illustrate your point...

 Anyway, what spacecraft engine are you talking about? Who are "they"?

 miko

[mrfish]

the ion engine and jpl. i don't have a link handy but there's lots out on it.

they ionize xenon with electron bursts, heat it up to thrust temperature and guide those excited lil bastards out that back at huge velocities. there's some additional magic along the way but i'm not fully read up on it.

high thrust ratio from a little bit of stuff though. it's pretty exciting.

i get your point, we might be messing with something before we understand how.....it happens, look at x-rays for example.....100 dead physicists later and then "oh yeah...."

what i mean by understanding their interactions is.... what system is he saying gravity subscribes to anyway? i'd sure like to know since it's mechanism is so vague to me.

if it's einsteins argument then it would either be on or off right?, not 2% less on. i mean if gravity is effected then why isn't any other physical dimension of his system? spacetime wraps around the rest of it just fine i assume, all except the object he's playing with.  

if you are prone to the quantum physics explanation then somehow he is partially preventing the emission and absorbtion of yet theoretical gravitons. if they exist at high energies then how is this modest machine shielding them? and why only some of them? they should all have similar energy, why wouldn't his field just block all of them, or is the field itself discontinuous? if you can shield them, you can isolate them and people have been trying that for years.  

lotsa questions and sketchy evidence...

the technical term is hawg-waller:D

[Udie]

so with this guys contraption if I drop my dubee will it fall up?  This could be a huge invention.  Just think of life without seed burns

[mason22]

"The details might be sketchy, but the basic idea behind the device is fairly simple. It begins with a disc, about six inches in diameter and a quarter of an inch thick, made out of a superconducting material whose recipe Podkletnov has carefully kept secret. The disc is cooled to below -233 degrees centigrade and levitated using a magnetic field. Then an electric field is applied to make the disc spin. So far, all we have is a variation on an electric motor, but Podkletnov claims that when the disc rotates at more than 5,000 revolutions per minute, an object placed above it begins to lose weight. Somehow, he says, the force of gravity is being counteracted--the trick is, you have to get the setup exactly right."


now, how do you measure the weight of something that is sitting on a spinning, levitating object? that's pretty neat....


i wonder which vector Udie's Dubee would take if he dropped it on the spinning disc.....would we get dizzy staring into the disc.....all these questions, so little time.

[AKSWulfe]

So, is the disc really spinning or is it all just an illusion brought about by the anti-gravity properties of a spinning disc? Is it really everything spinning around the disc and not the disc spinning?
And if we take a gravity bong, and make the tub spin... will that make it an anti-gravity bong???

Hmmmm......

-SW

[miko2d]

mrfish:  look at x-rays for example.....100 dead physicists later and then "oh yeah...."
 That would have never happened to me - as soon as I had realized that there was something in the room that can penetrate a thick cardboard, let alone my hand - I would be out of the room in a blink and sending in my assistant (not the lovely one - the other one) - with a rabbit in a cage if he was lucky.
 How many things did people know around 1900 that could penetrate a human body without doing harm to it, let alone of invisible kind? Hmm... arrows, bullets, gases, skin-penetrating poisons, electric current, voodoo, curses... Naah... Each one is pretty deadly. What were they thinking, really? As a physicist you must know the history of physics better then most people.

 For the same reason, the idea of a neighbour having a space-bending device or even a cold-fusion reactor in his lawn-mower does not really exite me. At least the personnel working the reactors on the nuclear power stations, submarines and airctaft carriers are smart enough to program time on their VCRs... I hope. Anyway, I can at least keep clear of those.
 And do not even think about making approach towards your driveway/landing pad over my roof in your flying car - you can definitely expect a barrage baloon or two in your way.

mrfish:  they ionize xenon with electron bursts, heat it up to thrust temperature and guide those excited lil bastards out that back at huge velocities.
 That seems an awfull waste of energy since the energy carried away by those ions greatly exceeds that imparted to the ship itself - energy is proportionate to the square of velocity but the impulse imparted is proportional to the velocity itself.
 Much more economical would be to push away a lot of mass slowly - like pushing from a planet.

 Lacking a planet, how come no one thought of using the well-tried propeller in space? Make a propeller few hundred miles in diameter out of the micron-thin strips of mylar few feet wide. Spin it up so that it keeps shape due to centrifugal forces (having two of them counterrotate may solve some problems). Any interstellar hydrogen (~1 atom per 30 cubic feet) gets pushed back, you go forward. As you go faster, increase angle of attack. Near the stars also functions as solar sail. No need to overheat any plasma to dangerous temperatures...

 miko

[Skuzzy]

Measuring the mass of an object that is suspended can be done.  After all, we know the mass of every planet in the solar system.

All mass generates gravity, the measurement of gravity can be done using a number of methods on objects we cannot touch.  You can use helium molecules and measure the deflection of those molecules as they pass near an object.  This is one of the simpler ways to accomplish the task.

Ion/Particle engines have been around for a long time.  They have been worked on for many years.  The goal today is to increase the amount of thrust so reasonable accelerations/decelerations can be achieved.  This has been the hard part all along.  The amount of thrust generated versus the amount of energy required to generate that thrust has been disappointing.  Definately better today than 15 years ago, but still needs work.

It is rather fascinating.

[Udie]

Mastard spake

i wonder which vector Udie's Dubee would take if he dropped it on the spinning disc.....would we get dizzy staring into the disc.....all these questions, so little time

 Hmmm sounds interesting!  I shall investigate/experiment tonight

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
So, is the disc really spinning or is it all just an illusion brought about by the anti-gravity properties of a spinning disc? Is it really everything spinning around the disc and not the disc spinning?
And if we take a gravity bong, and make the tub spin... will that make it an anti-gravity bong???

Hmmmm......

-SW

 So does this mean I'd have to breath out to inhale?  What does this do to the cough mechanism?  As I'm sure you know the cough coeficient is in direct proportion the intake expansion .  So could this so called spinning device used to make the anti-gravitational bong field cause lungs to implode?

[AKSWulfe]

Only one way to find out.....

Of course, be sure to have many people around to watch in fascination as your body collapses on itself.

Hmm, if a star implodes and becomes a black hole... would a imploding human body cause a unhuman hole?

Time to experiment!
-SW

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Measuring the mass of an object that is suspended can be done.  After all, we know the mass of every planet in the solar system.

mass, but i'm assuming he already measured the mass of the object before. he is citing the weight as his evidence. he is saying that same mass is being accelerated one rate outside the device a different lesser rate inside due to the device.

the way they judge mass in space is based on the ol' Gm1m2/r^2 relationship which this guy says doesn't hold in his machine. weight and mass are kinda tricky.

[mason22]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
would a imploding human body cause a unhuman hole?


-SW

btw, where's GoredHo?

[Udie]

Originally posted by mrfish


mass, but i'm assuming he already measured the mass of the object before. he is citing the weight as his evidence. he is saying that same mass is being accelerated one rate outside the device a different lesser rate inside due to the device.

the way they judge mass in space is based on the ol' Gm1m2/r^2 relationship which this guy says doesn't hold in his machine. weight and mass are kinda tricky.

ahhh the ol' Gm1m2/r^2!  Missed it by >< that much.


you will laugh damn you mrfish, yes you will.