Author Topic: Perk the FlakPanzer  (Read 564 times)

Offline Soda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
      • http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Perk the FlakPanzer
« on: March 28, 2002, 03:17:28 PM »
The Flak in real life was an extremely rare unit as I understand only a handful were ever made in the AH configuration.  The AH MA though I think they are an overly dominant unit because of their extraordinary abilities; consider the following:

Whenever I see a flakpanzer I always immediately think of what the C-Hog used to be like in the MA.  Specifically, the C-Hog used to be the best at everything, or at least a top competitor at everything.  When you needed to kill GV's you brought the C-Hog, when you wanted to killed buildings you brought the C-Hog, when you wanted to kill bombers the C-Hog worked great, it was a deadly HO machine, in A to A and had fantastic roll, was tough as nails,  etc etc etc... you get the idea.

Compare that to the flakpanzer:

When you need to defend from fighters, launch an Flak, 1 hit = 1 kill.  When you need to kill GV's you launch an Flak, it'll stop or kill any GV in the game within a couple of hits, even a panzer will lose it's turret in a couple of hits and be defenseless.  When you need to knock down a town/airfield you launch a Flak, it has enough ammo to take out every structure unlike a Panzer that will expend half its' ammo killing 1 hanger ... etc etc etc.  Add to that, the Flak seems almost impervious at times to the Panzer AP ammo(a constant complaint in the forums), the Flaks turret seems strangely hardened to strafing runs from above, and the Flak also can be repaired which makes anything less than completely killing it something of a waste.  Typically it seems far easier to disable the turret of a Panzer with an Ostie than to disable the turret of an Ostie with a Panzer.

In the current tour (not finished so these numbers are rough) these are the kill ratios on common GV's:
Panzer 1.28:1
M16      0.74:1
M3        0.30:1
M8        0.55:1
Flak      2.02:1

Last tour they were like this
Panzer 1.21:1
M16      0.78:1
M3        0.33:1
M8        0.54:1
Flak      2:01:1

Amazingly similar numbers.

The Flak had almost twice the total kills as the Panzer in the MA last tour and it appears on perfect course to be about the same this tour.  The M16 had only 1/4 the number of kills as the Flak.  The M8, less than 1/16th.

My points are this then:
-it is overly abundant in the MA having double the usage as the next unit (Panzer) and 4 times the usage of the 3rd place unit (M16)
-it was a rare unit in real life
-we already have alternatives to it in other units, though no other single unit is as effective in all areas like the Flak.
-it is overly "tough" to AP and strafing it feels more like a Panzer than an open topped vehicle (a constant source of bbs threads)
-it is resuppliable so has an advantage to survivability that all GV's have so your risk of having one killed on you is less.
-it is the best GV for killing planes, typically 1 hit = 1 kill
-it is the best for killing buildings
-it is the best GV against any other GV except a Panzer which it will disable the Panzers turret almost immediately anyway.
-it consistently has the highest kill ratio of any GV.
-it doesn't suffer any firing effects (barrel overheat, reload times), it can fire all 1000 rounds in a continuous fashion.  Where do they store 1000 ready rounds in the thing anyway?
-it has a overpowering amount of ammo, 1000 rounds, compared with their effectiveness.
-it's ammo seems dual-purpose, both HE and AP in one.  I constantly have my Panzer turret knocked out from the front by one.

So, I say we make the Flak require some perks, 2-5 points, I mean, what have we got to use our vehicle perks on anyway until some new unit shows up that takes them.  If you want to do the attack or defense thing and not risk a couple of perks, well, you still have the M16, M8, M3, LVT's and Panzer to do that work.  I just hope to make the Flak a little more rare than the waves of them that just seem to drive around all the time defending or attacking with little fear of anything except a fair sized bomb or rockets (of which rockets seem more effective but require an attack to get within suicidal range of the Flak).  

Note: There should be something done to allow de-spawning of one when using a remote spawnpoint.  All remote spawnpoints should be marked for people who spawn from them and they could use that as a landing pad to disembark and not lose perks (same as on the runway or at the VH at their home field).  Other than that the same rules as other perks apply regarding ditches/deaths/disco's/etc

-Soda
The Assassins

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2002, 03:20:57 PM »
I agree on perking the flaktank.


For all the reasons above and just because there IS no perked vehicle.. and this one definetely qualifies!

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2002, 03:24:18 PM »
I disagree, so easy to kill.  Vulnerable from the air.  1 well placed 500 lber kills it.

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2002, 03:33:47 PM »
I agree, at least 1 or 2 points.

eskimo

Offline popeye

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3712
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2002, 03:57:17 PM »
It turned me into a newt!
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline Soda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
      • http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2002, 04:02:55 PM »
If it was easy to kill from the air it would not have over a 2:1 kill ratio.. I honestly don't beleive the majority of kills in an Ostie are other soft GV's, they are mostly planes during attacks or defense missions.  Many aircraft in AH would love to have a 2:1 kill ratio and if they consistently did there would be a cry to perk them instantly.

The Flak is tough to kill from the air, even a well placed 1K bomb needs to basically fall within the graphical crater radius in order to have a fair chance for the kill.  I've even had Flak's drive away from the middle of a crater (though it is rare) as the bomb hits.  Also, you almost never seen Flaks getting damaged from bomb hits, it's either a kill or nothing.  Strafing is what seems to damage them, but it's 90% of the time the engine that gets killed long before the turret.  Rockets are what give kills, but using them involves getting within suicidal distances and flying straight.

-Soda

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2002, 04:13:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I disagree, so easy to kill.  Vulnerable from the air.  1 well placed 500 lber kills it.


one well placed 500lbr will kill an Me262 as well. should we unperk that?

Offline SKurj

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2002, 05:57:42 PM »
Leave the flakpanzer alone

How often do u drive all the way home?



SKurj

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2002, 07:31:54 PM »
Same could be asked of other vehicles skurj.

I really wouldnt mind seeing the flak at 5 perks... and that if it ditches anywhere on map the player dont lose perks. IF and IF the flak is not damaged (read: damaged, not like the planes where a "ping" can give someone a kill when you ditch. damaged as in something is red on the damage list).

Offline Weave

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 343
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2002, 07:37:11 PM »
I agree with perking the osty. Should cost in the neighbor hood of 25 perks.

Offline Gwjr2

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 795
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2002, 07:42:18 PM »
I dont mind a few points ...but a good pilot who knows how to kill a flak can hit it with bombs very easy, I think the 2 to 1 kill ratio is over done by stupid pilots that think they can nose down into a 25 degree dive and straff one.:eek:  I personally love to see that:D
GW
Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2002, 12:09:27 AM »
The issue GW, is that you can put a 1k bomb.. thats ONE THOUSAND lbs of explosive a few yds from the flaktank and nothing happens. You have to put the 1k'r almost ON the tank or within spitting range of it.

And I wont even say about the 100lb bombs, I bet they bounce off it. ;)

The next issue is the "open top" flak tank being strafed continously and not losing the turret. You literally have to come from a near 90 degree angle on top of it and hit it with a toejamload of 50 cals to get the turret.. and the flak can fire and hit you at d3.0... and aiming is no problem if you coming straight at it. 1 ping, adios your plane goes.

Rockets seem to be the only way to kill a flaktank with some degree of safety.. but you gotta be damn good at aiming them at long range or that flak will smack you outta the sky.

Then you got the flaktank having such a HUGE load of very powerfull ammo... it can kill other tanks such as the pzr with extreme ease, it can flatten a town all by itself using up only 1/6th of its ammo (with all ammo you can flatten town and almost 3 hangars).

Offline SKurj

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2002, 12:06:50 PM »
Ok i'm all for it if a ditch anywhere doesn't mean lost perks +)

Cuz that would make it virtually impossible for MG's to cause u to lose perks in it

Tac.. we have no perk gv's atm, so rtb is never an issue.  As soon as perks are introduced the rtb thing at those slooooooo speeds will become an issue


SKurj

Offline Fatty

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3885
      • http://www.fatdrunkbastards.com
Perk the FlakPanzer
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2002, 12:26:16 PM »
I think it'd be easier just to take the lack of rtb into account and make the cost appropriately lower.  Would slant things to the defensive side but I'm not sure that's a bad thing either.

Offline Alpo

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1511
Base defense??
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2002, 12:51:27 PM »
Then I'm assuming we would want AAA at bases to be toughened somewhat.  No, I don't care for the laser guided stuff that can hit a 450mph P51 in a 90 degree deflection shot but if someone sneezes too close to a base gun right now, they go pop.

Osties are really a base's only defense... other than the vulture chow which might get gear up and a snap shot or two before dying.

I don't think they should be nearly as tough as they are but then I seem to get the guns knocked out quite a bit by strafing planes.
SkyKnights Fighter Group -CO-
R.I.P.  SKDenny 02/03/1940 - 02/19/2012

...