Is man inherently good or evil?

[Ripsnort]

"Is man inherently evil?"

Just take a look at a 3 year old next time that is not disciplined by their parents...I think you'll have your answer.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Rude
Just my faith....everyone has freedom of choice regarding what they believe.

 Could you clarify a minor point for me. Have you really examined several religions and then made free choice which one to adhere to? I would like to hear what were your considerations.

 Most people seem to "choose" the religion their parents practiced and a small minority chooses the currently popular fad (islam for blacks, buddism for Hollywood liberals, etc.).
 Rare people get visited by the deity Himself who tells them what to believe - and while it is often a different one for different people, somehow it's never a vision of a few deities at once to the same man offering him/her a choice among themselves.

 So it is very hard to get a balanced view that would help with a real personal choice. As a freedom loving person I always want a choice, so it bothers me that I do not recall making any choice about belief I am currenlty stuck with and I do not feel I have a choice to change it arbitrarily...
 I tried a few times and every time ended up believing the same thing...

 miko

[StSanta]

Man just is. Good and evil are mere subjective creations. A false dichotomy. Usually a religious one, as well (if we talk about it in western terms)

Because of the relativistic nature of 'good and evil', we'd have to take an act, enclose in into a specific time and moral system, and then pass judgement.

Then we could say "based on the cultural values X at time Y, thing Z is good/bad".

Whatever is, is. Whatever is is whatever it is, no matter what we want it to be. Goes for the non theists, and goes for the theists.

Soetimes, a cigar is just a cigar. I prefer to use Occam's razor on the case of good and evil and cut it all away: the simpler answer is usually the correct one.

That humans are basically sinful little loathesome losers - that basic idea right there is the most powerful reason why I shun a popular Western religion.

Am a secular humanist. I prefer to celebrate Man's achievements and potential and work to better mankind, rather than whine and roll around in the dirt wallowing in ecstatic self loathing.

But, you take your pick.

[Apache]

Originally posted by StSanta
Man just is. Good and evil are mere subjective creations. A false dichotomy. Usually a religious one, as well (if we talk about it in western terms)

Because of the relativistic nature of 'good and evil', we'd have to take an act, enclose in into a specific time and moral system, and then pass judgement.

Then we could say "based on the cultural values X at time Y, thing Z is good/bad".

Whatever is, is. Whatever is is whatever it is, no matter what we want it to be. Goes for the non theists, and goes for the theists.

Soetimes, a cigar is just a cigar. I prefer to use Occam's razor on the case of good and evil and cut it all away: the simpler answer is usually the correct one.

That humans are basically sinful little loathesome losers - that basic idea right there is the most powerful reason why I shun a popular Western religion.

Am a secular humanist. I prefer to celebrate Man's achievements and potential and work to better mankind, rather than whine and roll around in the dirt wallowing in ecstatic self loathing.

But, you take your pick.

lol, you sound like Bill Clinton. It depends on what is, is.

So, if Man (for qts) is basically good, those of us who do evil get up one day and decide, I'm going to be bad...today. Its a conscience thought process? They don't fight the evil within them that continually strives to be released but instead make the decision to be or do evil?

[straffo]

I'm insane does I qualify as evil so ?

[buhdman]

Apache,

If you're seriously trying to answer this question, then I recommend the following books to you.  They helped me get a better perspective on this crazy world of ours.  While they are not the easiest things in the world to read, they are enlightening

1. "Ethics for a New Millenium", Dahli Llama

2. "The Power of Now", Echkart Tolle

Walt (Buhdman) Barrow

"When all is said and done, you are what you are.  The choice at each moment in time is: What are you going to be?"

[Apache]

Originally posted by buhdman
Apache,

If you're seriously trying to answer this question, then I recommend the following books to you.  They helped me get a better perspective on this crazy world of ours.  While they are not the easiest things in the world to read, they are enlightening

1. "Ethics for a New Millenium", Dahli Llama

2. "The Power of Now", Echkart Tolle

Walt (Buhdman) Barrow

"When all is said and done, you are what you are.  The choice at each moment in time is: What are you going to be?"

I'm not necessarily seeking an answer as I'm fairly grounded in my own beliefs and understanding. My goal was to see the reaction from the community. The varied levels of intellect and standards are most thought provoking.

Let me add, it was not my goal to start a war, then sit back & watch. Not that I see that as an implication in anyones post, but just want to make that clear.

Thanks for the recommendations. I will most assuredly check them out.

[Curval]

Men are inherently horny.

Women are inherently complicated.

[Skuzzy]

Nah, women are not complicated Curval.  As long as you understand the driving force or desire to keep men in total anxiety, utter helplessness, and total confusion, is what empowers them, then all is good .

However, men are inherently horny, which allows the above to work.

[miko2d]

StSanta: ...the simpler answer is usually the correct one.

 “For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H.L. Menken

  miko

[StSanta]

LOL Miko, touché .

But, I'll take Occam's Razor any day.

What causes my skin to turn blue when I hit it it hard with a piece of wood?

Alies, of microscopic size, deciding to jump from the piece of wood into my skin and have a Blue Party, or simply blood clotting up for a bit?



Apache, what I am saying is that no matter how firm we believe something is a particular way, it has absolutely no influence whatsoever on how it *really* is - unless you count your own concept of the universe as 'the universe'.

Your point about me sounding like Clinton was below the belt. You shall either apologize profusely, or face Santa's Wrath. And believe me, being a fat guy going through small chimneys is not gonna set my mood to a positive one

As to the rest of your question. There's nothing, aside from religious books (of Man's constructs) and ethical values (Man's constructs as well) that suggest that things are loaded with a value ranging from good to evil.

Most thing in the universe are neither. They just are. A gigantic star expanding as it dies, taking in all the planets orbiting it and killing off whatever life was there is not evil. Nor are the planets being engulfed in flames.

Inanimate objects, those. Let's apply the standards to animals. Are horses inherently evil? Cows, dogs? Is it a vicious act a sheep commits when it rips something off an organic, living entity? Is the wolf evil when it does the same to the sheep? To some, it is. To me, it's not

The distinction we make between humans and animals is arbitrary - animals act according to the *instincts* or nature, humans more according to their logical mind or 'human nature'.

It's a false division. There are countless examples of just how we behave like other animals. Our mating rituals are erhaps more advanced, but the basics are the same as in many other species. Aggression is there, like other species. The list goes on.

We're a lot smarter, but intelligence alone does not make the difference between being good/evil and not being good/evil. Again, basing it on intelligence is an arbitrary choice.

I prefer to see acts as either beneficial or non beneficial to a group or an individual, and judge the intent as well. When I use 'evil' and 'good', I use it in that context.

Am not terribly clear I'm afraid. I'll try to retype it or edit it when I've had some sleep.

[mrfish]

like i said miko, not everyone likes the idea of an orderly world. the majority of people, like youself, do better surviving in a world of niches and exceptions.

it's a pipe dream anyway, i'm not holding my breath, just disappointed to see what's possible in contrast to what is.

there's nothing real holding us back, just the constant  insistance of how impossible a better world is by people with no faith.