I would like to see the US attack I** to get rid of that b*st*rd S*****

[takeda]

All I'm proposing is that the get-out-of-jail free card for Israel should have expired a long while ago.

They should be accountable for every death they cause, just the same as anyone.

UN resolutions against them are never enforced, while the bare facts on the ground and the ensuing resolutions are identical to those on the Serbia/KLA case.

Of course they are far tougher guys than Serbs, and heck, they have nukes, and even decide on the ballots of a few states. Should we change the "War on Terror" thing to the "War on Terror_Weak_Enough_And_Non_US _Voter" ?

So, as the Palestinians get their daily share of blame, MANY TIMES WELL DESERVED,  enlightened people should know better.

[Heater]

Originally posted by Toad
Generally, speaking, if you leave the Israelis alone, they leave you alone.

1948: UN gives Israel statehood. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country. Blame Israel? Nope.

I normally do not respond to these threads, but I think your first statement is the root of the problem, It was not the UN's land to give away! which is one of the root causes of the problems!
I am neither for or against Israel, But what is happing now is Wrong no matter which way you look at it.

[Vulcan]

Palestinians are hell bent on being Martyrs, I say give em a helping hand

Reastically speaking, mebbe Israel shouldn't have been created. But WTF are you gonna do, boot em out? The only thing that will stop this conflict is a big arse mutha fediddleer Berlin-style wall between em, and the Israeli's booting every Palestinian out. Throw in a little radar location system for those home-made missiles, and level every neighbourhood they launch from - just to stop the tards from throwing rocks over the fence at each other.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Heater


I normally do not respond to these threads, but I think your first statement is the root of the problem, It was not the UN's land to give away! which is one of the root causes of the problems!
I am neither for or against Israel, But what is happing now is Wrong no matter which way you look at it.

Okay...you are right..it wasn't UN land to give away.

Fact is that the determination of who's land it is/was is right at the heart of the problem and ya gotta go much further back than 1948.

Try going back a few THOUSAND years and you begin to find the root of the problem.

Hey...just look in the bible....there is a little story about a guy named "Moses" who was trying to free his people...the Jews...from slavery at the hands of the Egyptians.

This is about where it all starts.

Then you can play the blame game from this point on...

You know...The Arabs did this, the Jews then did that...etc. etc..

We can talk when you are done...assuming we are still alive.

[Voss]

Originally posted by takeda
Yeager: you fail to present facts, just general blurry opinions about "not trusting arabs". It is not too grave, you just need to dig a little more to form a real opinion.

Voss: Your case is worse. You are heavily influenced by ultra-nationalist propaganda. You can continue to blind yourself, but if you want to see the truth, I recommend you to broaden your sources of information a bit. Your statements about Palestine being a complete wilderness before the 1940's are just like Holocaust denial. Holocaust deniers should be locked up with the freak rabbis who write those nonsenses. A few "martyr trainer" mullahs and rev Falwell could well join the party.

Takeda: Yeah, I'm a bigot. I was talking about Israel, not Palestine (moron). Thirty to forty years doesn't equate to pre-40's either. Actually, it was more like fifty years.

You're wrong. It was a wasteland. There was nothing there. Nothing. No one wanted it. It's a low spot in the Eastern Med. It wasn't fertile, it had nothing in the way of farm land, until it was cultivated, and it had no mineral value. Inland, quite a ways, was a different story. I have seen lack and white movies of USAAF surveys of the place before it was settled. Dead camels, and nothing else (maybe a donkey carcass).

You can compare it to a rich guy buying out the ghetto's, razing the area, and then building it anew, only to have the neighbors complain, "hey, I would have bought that if..."

It's pure roadkill on the part of the Palestinians.

I defend neither side.

Believe your own crap. I don't care. I'm sick of this crap in the news. I don't care one twit about a bunch of guys with rags on their heads dictating policies to us, as if we had to listen. We don't. They look and sound ridiculous (recall Arafat telling Amanpour to shutup - that was scummy).

The point is, even though Bush is currently denying Palestine is a terrorist state, it is. It's a rotten apple in the barrel of world peace. They need to be cut out and thrown in the rubbish bin, and if that means Arafat has to die, so be it. Now, I'm not for Palestinians being killed indiscriminately. Nor am I for killing Israeli's. I'm for shutting them both up.

This also reminds me of a bunch of cry babies playing snowfort.

My opinion of Israeli's, and Arabs alike, approaches the lowest levels possible with every act of violence between them. Currently, though, my opinion of Palestinians approaches that of gutter rats. That's what their actions have brought them.

I'm starting to think a turd like Saddam makes this salamander Arafat look bad. Now that's low!

[Toad]

Originally posted by Heater


I normally do not respond to these threads, but I think your first statement is the root of the problem, It was not the UN's land to give away! which is one of the root causes of the problems!
I am neither for or against Israel, But what is happing now is Wrong no matter which way you look at it.

Heater, I think you'll have to go further back than the UN decision as the root of the problem.

THE ORIGINS AND EVOLUTION OF THE PALESTINE PROBLEM 1917-1988

"The origins of the Palestine problem as an international issue, however, lie in events occurring towards the end of the First World War.

These events led to a League of Nations decision to place Palestine under the administration of Great Britain as the Mandatory Power under the Mandates System adopted by the League. In principle, the Mandate was meant to be in the nature of a transitory phase until Palestine attained the status of a fully independent nation, a status provisionally recognized in the League's Covenant, but in fact the Mandate's historical evolution did not result in the emergence of Palestine as an independent nation."

But even that is really not far enough......

Palestine: History
 

"Palestine stands alone among the Roman provinces in that here only there existed a national identity strong enough effectively to challenge Roman rule.  That identity depended on a body of Hebrew religious writings that constituted a concrete locus for the formation of durable political and religious institutions."

 

In other words, the Romans didn't call one of the Palestinian provinces "Judaea" for nothing.

But even THAT really isn't far enough....

HISTORY OF THE WORLD

-2500  Early Hebrew civilization in Israel area
-1400  Hebrews invade Canaan (Joshua)
-1300  Hebrew Exodus from Egypt under Moses
-1250  Israelites invade Palestine
-1020  Saul becomes King of Israel
-720  Assyrians invade Palestine

So, all this "this land is YOUR land, this land is MY land" stuff is pretty silly isn't it?

I mean, how far back can one go with the "my land" argument "logically" used to justify the slaughter?

<..and this isn't true of just Palestine either... we can all instantly think of a few other recent examples.>

Clearly, Israel as a state isn't going away. They have worked hard and made the desert bloom. They're ready to fight to the death to keep it. Pushed to the edge, they've got nukes and I think they'd use them. So, as I said upthread, one would think the Arabs would have learned to quit poking them with the "violence stick".

Clearly, the Palestinians deserve the same opportunity the Israelis got. A state of their own and aid to get it going. They'll have the advantage on not being instantly assaulted by five different armies on the declaration of their statehood, too. It may need UN Peacekeepers again on the border for a while, but I'd wager that would be to keep all the would-be moron Arab "martyrs" out of Israel, not to keep Israel out of a legitimate Palestinian state that truly renounced violence..



BUT... dwelling upon who owned what land  over the last 3000 years has got them nowhere and is totally non-germane to the current situation.

They HAVE to learn to live together or they'd better be ready to all die together.


FOR TAKEDA:

Rather than editing your earlier posts, if you have something to add, why not make a new post?

I didn't see what you went back and added till just a second ago.. and I'm not sure of the point you're making about Iraq anyway. So, if you want to discuss something else... put it in a sequential post, please. Or at least mark the . Thx.

[SageFIN]

nm

[takeda]

Almost all edits were grammar stuff, not really new things.

The Iraq stuff? It's in the first post, and basically with the irony removed is, why they should be attacked for the very same reasons Israel seems to get away with?

[Pepe]

Toad -> Nail in the head (both posts)

Anyone of you had ever negotiate with an Arab? Anyone of you ever bought anything on a zoco? It's a cultural matter. Their concept of honesty and truthfulness is different than ours. We are not comparing apples to apples. Their final goal is throwing jews to the sea. They've stated that from the very moment Israel was created, and I have no doubt it remains the same. And even if they swear over the Coran that they have changed, and they would tolerate an Israel state in the middle east, I won't believe them. This would be a concession towards their final goal. Go negotiate with an Arab. No. I don't like them. In general, and saving for whatever exception I'm sure there is, I don't trust them. A single bit.

At the end, the question is wether Israel state has the right to exist, or not. If your answer is "No it has not" then you have the easy answer. Just say Israel governor is a soulless murderer, say Palestinians have their right to fight for their land, put a convenient blind eye on (for instance) Arafat's past & present, and sit down and look how Palestine goes back to the useless nonimportant land it's been until british occupied it. If the answer is "Yes it has" then prepare for hard times. Because fact over fact over fact is proven that Israel has not been the aggressor. Indeed it's been tough, cruel, even inhuman, in their repression. They have been mostly ingenuous thinking they could civilize and rule Palestine after 1.973's occupation. But nothing compares (from my point of view) to arab nations willing to anihilate Israel as a State. From 1.947 on, they have relentlessly pursued that.

Takeda, your statements about killing people etc. are trivial. They mean nothing as they are obvious or utopic. On your first post, I think each and everyone of us misundertood you. You were talking about Irak & Iran, didn't you?

Cheers,

Pepe

[takeda]

On the arab zoco stuff... blatant racism and a stupid comparison. So you got cheated buying a silly souvenir in a zoco, yeah the entire Muslim world should be ignored for that.

I was talking about Iraq and Israel, go ahead and dismiss any of the stated facts.

If you think Israel policy is right, then why not use it here in our own country?

Next time E.T.A. bombs anything we send the air force to level Gernika, blow up the H.Q. of the Ertzaina (Basque autonomous police for those out of Spain), send the Leopards to surround Arzallus (the silly and insulting leader of the moderate Nationalists ruling the Basque Country), detain every member of Batasuna (E.T.A.'s political wing), shoot a few of them at the spot  and then just watch E.T.A support in the Basque Country rise to 50% or 60%  from the current less than 10% it enjoys.

That is the wet dream of E.T.A. just as the current situation is the wet dream of Hamas sheiks. We refuse to give them that here, while Sharon and the nazionists pushing him swallow up the whole bait.

There are four struggles going on in the Middle East right now, and you have to choose which ones you support, any simplification just isnīt fair.

a) The Palestinian people and authority against the 25 year Israeli occupation. I support that

b) The Islamic fundamentalists seeking the destruction of Israel. I donīt support that

c) Israel defending their internationally agreed borders and execution of POLICE and LEGAL actions against terrorism within their borders. I support that

d) Israel seeking to boot palestinians out of their lands by stablishing settlements and out of intimidation, to form Greater Israel. I donīt support that

So Hamas diddlyheads and the nazionists piggyback on the justified objectives of both Palestinians and Israelis, and those of you with too many prejudices fail to disect the situation and then tend to propose too simple solutions.

[Edited because of poor english writing]

[Samm]

The US is at war with anyone who feeds, funds or keeps company with terrorist . This is why (if you haven't yet noticed), the white house considers Arafat an enemy . And they're glad the Isrealis are handling him, because if they didn't we would have to . And that would of course cause an uproar if I may understate it .

[Pepe]

Takeda,

First, I've never said muslim. I said Arab. This is a world of difference, I'm sure you know. It's not racist either. It's a generalization, and an error in itself as it leaves aside exceptions to the rule. I point that as a cultural difference. Saying that we all people are equal is the most stupid thing I have to hear. We are all different, and we are immersed in different cultures. I think Arabs qualify themselves as a culture, in the cathegorical sense. And this culture is very well reflected in their towns and zocos. The way they organize commerce and commercial transactions, and social relationship. Maybe on your standards this reasons qualifiy as stupid and racist, not in mine. I won't debate here virtues and vices of Arab culture, I'm not so qualify to say that. But I do not trust them. That's all. I know It's a prejudice, and that it's blatantly not PC. But then I'm reaaally tired of PCness. Maybe because of "our" problem.

Second, I've never been cheated in a zoco, so far. My dayly work involves price negotiation, and one skill you develop on this job is sayin "no" when you are not convinced. So no hard feelings on this side against zocos.

Third, Basque question is, ultimately, related to the same question: Who has rights to call any land "their" land. And what tactics are valid to bring that point to light. And what ones are valid to deny it.

I have my own oppinions on what is right and wrong in "our" problem, but that is not the point of this thread, I think, and is wrong to use it to illustrate your argument. Different places, different people.

Finally, you stated clearly what you support and what you do not. Again, that's sterile. Nobody cares what you support and what you don't. Nobody cares, similarily, what I support or not. Your point is "I'd like xyz attack abc and I get rid of the problem" and you have to support your point. What people expect (or should expect) to read are your arguments in supporting your points. And which are they? Israelis invaded Palestina? There ends everything? So I try to invade your country, try to kill you and your family, you hit me back to my borders, and then further, and I have to give you back the land you took from me? Where do you throw the line of the first invassion? Who is the aggressor?

The one and only clear cut line in all this problem is terrorism. It is the foremost and principal problem. The precondition to start talking as humans. And you can extrapolate this to "our" problem too. Something that the very sophisticated brains like yours seem to fail to see. And something that even more sophisticated brains use to their benefit. And I'm sure that your free from prejudices mind and your ellaborated proposals to solve the problem (as your thread title suggest) will know how to interprete the latter.

Sincerely,

[takeda]

Spare us the disneyland politics, we are talking about the real stuff here.

You should read the whole newspaper, and a few more of them, not just the headlines of the CartoonyLand Gazette of your hometown, you look like a silly drone spewing simplistic nonsense.

While the baseline of "Terror is Wrong" is really a good start and I agree with you, you should really dig a bit deeper, define terror, define "terrorism-feeding" and decide who you really want to blow up for it.

Would you blow up Irish neighbourhoods in NY for sendin $$$ to the I.R.A. all those years?

As much as I think they were wrong for doing that, I don't expect the US to declare war on them any time soon.

[GRUNHERZ]

Caligula how can a Jew have this type of hateful racist superior Nazi attitude? WTF did you guys take notes and study in the camps?

[Samm]

Originally posted by takeda


Would you blow up Irish neighbourhoods in NY for sendin $$$ to the I.R.A. all those years

No we had them arested and siezed their assets, had they shot back then yes the authorities would've responded in kind . There were even a few organization in the CFC that were dealt with. What I said above isn't opinion, it's objective data . But you can keep providing us with invalid forms of argument if you like .