I would like to see the US attack I** to get rid of that b*st*rd S*****

[takeda]

I'm all for the US attacking and bringing into line rogue states in the Middle East with the following
characteristics:

- Continous threat to the stability of the region.
- Production and storage of mass destruction weaponry.
- Threats and attacks on neighbouring countries.
- Non compliance with UN resolutions.
- Unlawful occupation of land out of their borders.
- Refusal of international monitoring of their questioned activities.
- Mistreat of ethnic/religious minorities
- Government approved human rights violations.

Hint: Those states mostly seem to have their name starting with "I" and they leaders commonly
used names are known to start with "S".

If you find more than one country conforming to this profile and honestly think only one of those
should be punished for it, please explain us why you would spare the other.

[Curval]

Were your parents/grandparents Franco supporters by any chance?

[Toad]

Generally, speaking, if you leave the Israelis alone, they leave you alone.

1948: UN gives Israel statehood. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country. Blame Israel? Nope.

1956: In contradiction to the UN Security Council resolution of 1 September 1951, Israeli and Israel-bound shipping was prevented from passing through the Suez Canal; the blockade of the Straits of Tiran was tightened; incursions into Israel of terrorist squads from neighboring Arab countries for murder and sabotage occurred with increasing frequency; and the Sinai peninsula was gradually converted into a huge Egyptian military base.

Upon the signing of a military alliance by Egypt, Syria and Jordan (October 1956) Israel attacked to ensure their own survival. In eight days they captured the Gaza Strip and the entire Sinai peninsula, halting 10 miles (16 km.) east of the Suez Canal.
 
A UN decision to station a UN Emergency Force (UNEF) along the Egypt-Israel border and Egyptian assurances of free navigation in the Gulf of Eilat led Israel to agree to withdraw in stages (November 1956 - March 1957). The Straits of Tiran were opened, enabling  trade and oil imports from the Persian Gulf.

Blame Israel? Nope. If Egypt had followed the UN resolution it wouldn't have happened.

1967: Arab terrorist raids across the Egyptian and Jordanian borders, persistent Syrian artillery bombardment of agricultural settlements in northern Galilee and massive military build-ups by the neighboring Arab states. Egypt moved troops into the Sinai desert (May 1967), ordered the UN peacekeeping forces (deployed since 1957) out of the area, reimposed the blockade of the Straits of Tiran and entered into a military alliance with Jordan.

Egypt had violated the arrangements agreed upon following the 1956 Sinai Campaign, Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt in the south, followed by a counterattack against Jordan in the east and the routing of Syrian forces entrenched on the Golan Heights in the north.

Blame Israel? Nope. If Egypt had followed the UN peace agreement it wouldn't have happened.

1973: Three years of relative calm were shattered when Egypt and Syria launched a coordinated surprise assault against Israel (6 October 1973), with the Egyptian army crossing the Suez Canal and Syrian troops penetrating the Golan Heights.

Blame Israel? Nope. If... well, you get the idea, right?

What's the common denominator? It's not Israeli agression... it's the failure of the various Arab nations to abide by UN resolutions and agreements.

I'm not presently a supporter of Israeli action. They themselves have now gone "over the line" and are in violation of UN resolutions and agreements. In short, they have become indistinguishable from their enemies. But the UN doesn't have the balls to put International Peacekeepers between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Anyway, this whole sad story has it's roots in the failure of the Arabs to abide by the UN decision on Israel's statehood. I can see where the Israelis.. particularly after what happened in WW2... felt they needed their own state. They got it from the UN. The Arabs, with the exception of Egypt and Jordan, have never accepted that.

It appears to me that the Israelis react to percieved threats to their security immediately and with great force. One would think that the various Arab nations would have this figured out by now and would just leave those crazy bastiges alone.

I have no doubt that Palestinians WOULD have their own state by now if Arafat hadn't bailed out of the last negotiations for statehood before this latest intifada started. (during the Clinton admin.)

Poking the Israelis in the eye with the "violence stick" has been repeatedly proven to be an extremely stupid idea, yet the Arabs, like moths to a flame, seem drawn to repeat the same mistake over and over.

I don't particularly like the state that Israel has become and I think the US is way, way too supportive of them.

However, I think anyone smarter than a stone fence post should have learned by now that you are much better off if you just leave the crazy bastiges ALONE.

[takeda]

Now that you ask, one of my grandfathers was on the Nationalist Army,  mostly office duty and saw just little combat. The other one disapeared, he was in a socialist union, so probably was shot at some backwater road by a falangist death squad.

My parents just tried to teach me not to trust any people whose ideals tend to produce "lead intoxications" in the backs of the heads of their opponents.

And now tell me how this has to do with my Yet Another Middle East Rant?


for Toad. While I agree with you that the greed and even sheer stupidity of many Arab countries is part of the historical roots of this crisis, I do not think you can blame people diying just as I write this for any of that. The founders of Israel were as eager to boot the arabs out of Palestine as the thugs ruling the arab coutries where to drive them to the sea.

But returning to the current situation at hand you have failed to propose additional reasons to attack Iraq, or deny that any of my proposed reasons also can be applied fully to Israel.

[Curval]

Originally posted by takeda
And now tell me how this has to do with my Yet Another Middle East Rant?

Nothing specific really...you just seem to be anti-Israel and from Spain.

I'm not trying to defend Sharon...but you have a definate one-sided opinion that seems to ignore the Palentinian "faults".

[-lynx-]

It is difficult to support Israel at the moment. However - what I remember is that for every pulling the troops/tanks back or a ceasefire by the Israelies a few days later yet another young stupid was blowing him/herself up together with innocent bystanders. It is a strange pattern - Arafat keeps whining about peace in the UN, UN asks Israel to be "good". Israel complies or makes a motion to comply - caboom! Another suicide bomber.

How to resolve this vicious circle of violence? No way to prevent a determined religious fanatic from carrying out an attack. And I can see the Israel's point of view too - what would you have them to do? Turn another cheek and die? Effectively, after September 11th the US took the very same route - they identified where the terrorists were based and blew the place to bits... "Unequal response"? "Tanks against stones"? Hmmm... Again, the "free thinking" sounding rhetorics are great but what would you have done? Send a soldier a day to blow himself up in a Palestinian crowd?...

[takeda]

That is, killing people is BAD.

Killing teens in a disco or a mall is BAD.
Killing teens throwing stones at tank is BAD.
Killing people while they drive their car around is BAD.
Killing even supposed criminals on the spot with an AG missile or a handgun without judge o jury is BAD.

Some of you seem to think that performing some of those activities under a recognised flag, wearing uniforms and serving a "Western Ally" state makes them somewhat less evil.

So I say, among all involved, there are lots of diddlyhead criminals, if you think you can let them have at it, you will be sorry when they carry it over your door (again).


On the Franco thing, he was a midget chubby fascistic idiot with a small d*ck (remember he got my elders shot), but you canīt blame him for the Holocaust, please check this link, you could learn something:

http://www.mae.es/holocaust/Default.htm

In fact, the fringe "Franco lover" groups remaining in Spain fully and rabidly support Israel. (They tend to support the one with the bigger guns and the upper hand and now they hate muslims far more than jews. Funny because Franco's personal guard was a "Moorish Guard" unit from Morocco ).

[Yeager]

I will never support any arab nation.  

My entire life, arab nations have been nothing but lousy trouble.  As weapons of mass destruction continue to proliferate it will only be a matter of time before the unimaginable happens and the world will be forced once again to trim its human population by hundreds of millions in very short order.

It does nothing but piss me off just thinking about it.  I only hope when the time comes the arab nations are eliminated once and for all and that the rest of the planet can somehow manage to survive.

fediddleing stupid dumb assed idiots will ruin the good life for the rest of us

Ok Yeager... now smile for the camera

[Voss]

I don't see much difference in what Israel is doing, and what we are doing in Afghanistan. We get hit by terrorists, we take the fight to them and stop them cold.

Israel gets hit by terrorists (suicide bombers equate to terrorists in my book) and they take the fight to them and stop them (somewhat).

Thirty, or forty, years ago no one was living in what is modern day Israel. It was a desert, a swamp, and unoccupied. If anything, it was land that robbers and thieves used to attack pilgrim's, migrators, and traders to steal anything of value and murder their victims. Nothing has changed, you see?

I understand the issues are more complicated than this, but it comes down to blind hatred of a religion and therefore a people. It's stupid. That about sums up all wars, though.

[takeda]

Yeager: you fail to present facts, just general blurry opinions about "not trusting arabs". It is not too grave, you just need to dig a little more to form a real opinion.

Voss: Your case is worse. You are heavily influenced by ultra-nationalist propaganda. You can continue to blind yourself, but if you want to see the truth, I recommend you to broaden your sources of information a bit. Your statements about Palestine being a complete wilderness before the 1940's are just like Holocaust denial. Holocaust deniers should be locked up with the freak rabbis who write those nonsenses. A few "martyr trainer" mullahs and rev Falwell could well join the party.

[~Caligula~]

 don't see much difference in what Israel is doing, and what we are doing in Afghanistan. We get hit by terrorists, we take the fight to them and stop them cold.

Israel gets hit by terrorists (suicide bombers equate to terrorists in my book) and they take the fight to them and stop them (somewhat).

Thirty, or forty, years ago no one was living in what is modern day Israel. It was a desert, a swamp, and unoccupied. If anything, it was land that robbers and thieves used to attack pilgrim's, migrators, and traders to steal anything of value and murder their victims. Nothing has changed, you see?

I understand the issues are more complicated than this, but it comes down to blind hatred of a religion and therefore a people. It's stupid. That about sums up all wars, though.
 

aggreed 100%
there were many people(including Mark Twain) that described the holy land as an abandoned wasteland around the end of 19. century.
then when jews started to move back there,arabs would start a mass migration as well,to make sure the land remains in arab hands.In islam giving up allready conquered land is unacceptable.

BTW all here talks about a religious war.In fact out of 16million jews only about 1 million are religious.And this figure applies to the whole world.So most israelis are not religious,and god and the tora is not what they`re fighting for.They fight for their lifes,families and homes.

[takeda]

Ughg, herr sturmbahnfuhrer Caligula is beyond help, he is part of the problem, not the solution.

BTW, nice nick, why should anyone pick it up?:


"Caius Caesar Caligula--Caligula (b. 12 AD, ruled 37-41) was famous for his cruelty and vice and was killed by the praetorian guard."

[~Caligula~]

I lost patience.


This guy is my enemy and I hate he`s gutts.
They did this (pictures too cruel to post)

[takeda]

Yes, dead people are not nice to see. And killers are enemies of our species.

Want to count bodies or help to stop them piling?

[Curval]

Originally posted by takeda
That is, killing people is BAD.

Killing teens in a disco or a mall is BAD.
Killing teens throwing stones at tank is BAD.
Killing people while they drive their car around is BAD.
Killing even supposed criminals on the spot with an AG missile or a handgun without judge o jury is BAD.

Some of you seem to think that performing some of those activities under a recognised flag, wearing uniforms and serving a "Western Ally" state makes them somewhat less evil.

Isreal AND the Palestinians have done all of your "bad items" (with the exception of killing kids throwing rocks at tanks...that one goes solely to Isreal [how smart is that on behalf of the kids btw?])

Your posts seem to lay all of the blame on Israel though....both sides are guilty of atrocities and should stop.  By playing the "blame game" the way you are part of the problem....not part of any solution.

You ask later "Want to count bodies or help to stop them piling?"  I see nothing in what you have said to suggest you follow you're own advice.