Author Topic: Oh, the horror of the younger generation and its understanding of history  (Read 1645 times)

Offline Sikboy

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Oh, the horror of the younger generation and its understanding of history
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2002, 02:27:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
you know what pisses me off is when people start complaining about me and my veiws i have a right to feel whatever i want about the war.


And we have a right to make fun of you for it.

-Sikboy
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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline BGBMAW

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AMerican planes
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2002, 03:24:21 PM »
Good day  RIPSNORt..i dint read the rest o fthis stuff...BUT a ZERO was way out classed by the p-38's (note first models)....Only thing a zero could do was out turn at lo speeds..(Thomas McQuire..Dick Bong would argue that tho) ,,using combat flaps and adjusting prop angles and engine speed was known to turn slow with zero....Just got done reading "FORK TAILED DEVIL"..excellent book.....so we not only had numbers ,,but we did have a FEW SUPERIOR planes,,,,,,,,,

BiGB>>>>>>>>>>BGBMAW<<<<1st Marine Air WIng>>>>:)

Offline Widewing

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Re: AMerican planes
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2002, 06:53:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
Good day  RIPSNORt..i dint read the rest o fthis stuff...BUT a ZERO was way out classed by the p-38's (note first models)....Only thing a zero could do was out turn at lo speeds..(Thomas McQuire..Dick Bong would argue that tho) ,,using combat flaps and adjusting prop angles and engine speed was known to turn slow with zero....Just got done reading "FORK TAILED DEVIL"..excellent book.....so we not only had numbers ,,but we did have a FEW SUPERIOR planes,,,,,,,,,

BiGB>>>>>>>>>>BGBMAW<<<<1st Marine Air WIng>>>>:)


Be careful with Caidin's work. He tended not to verify his facts. Arthur W. Heiden, who wrote the letter that motivated Caidin to write FTD, and who actually wrote most of the last chapter, is a friend of mine. The best stuff in FTD is gleaned from the pilots. That story about the P-38 returning to base with a dead pilot, and breaking up over the field, is a highly fictionalized version of the truth. Bob Johnson told me that he found Caidin was constantly trying to sensationalize Johnson's story and he (Johnson) had several heated arguments with Caidin when he found several blatant exaggerations in the first drafts of the manuscript. Caidin was a book factory, like Ambrose is today. In that respect, Caidin did not take time to confirm dubious facts in order to meet deadlines. Read his stuff with care.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline BGBMAW

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ya that i sspooky about the ghost 38
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2002, 03:58:56 PM »
Yes very strange about the ghost 38..HO w could that happen???He got shot in  melay..then he was so trimmed well that he grabbed to 30k,,and drifted back to base????Being the last paragragh in the book..it spooked me as i wen tto sleep..lolol

Offline Sikboy

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Oh, the horror of the younger generation and its understanding of history
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2002, 05:59:29 PM »
Interesting bit about the "Ghost 38"

I've never read "Forked Tail Devi", but I read a legend very similar in a book called "Wings of Mystery." It was a pretty sensational book about things like the Avengers in the Bermuda Triangle, the Lady Be Good, Amelia Earhart ect. There is one story about a P-40 that flew into China. Allied planes went up to check it out, and were unable to force the plane to change course, so they opened fire on it. Shot it up good, but it still managed to ditch. When ground pounders got to the wreak it was piloted by a freakin skelleton

Pretty cool story, but I just filed it under "S" for scary but doubtfull. :)


-Sikboy
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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Tracer-15

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i may be young...but i respect what history i know...i dont try to exxagerate and make up 'what ifs' about wars......some ppl dont know what they are talking about and then make us angry or mess with the reputation or honor of past and fallen comrades....my jist of this...speak of what you know....

Offline Masherbrum

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I'm glad that "Operation Olympic" did not take place.  I was able to spend 25 years with my grandfather who fought on Guam, Okinawa and the Occupation of China (he hated this worse than Oki)[he passed in 1998], in the U.S.M.C..   His divisions orders were to land at Yokohama Bay.   I never would have known him and this world would be DRASTICALLY different from the way it is today if "Operation Olympic" would have happened.  Japan would have suffered even more than it did, and the casualties on all sides would have been horrific.  I think a million total (like most historians say) is not even close to the number of lives lost.  

I know that first sentence sounds harsh but it shouldn't be taken that way.   When people like Vorticon bring up the A-Bomb incidents, they forget an even WORSE tragedy brought about on Japan.  The Tokyo Fire Raids that killed more (around 1 million) civilians due to high winds carrying flames from building to building.   I'm always amazed at the dumbfounded faces of the "Anti-A-Bomb" people.   They shut up after they hear that.   They only want to look at one side of the story.  The total number of radioactive related deaths is not close to One million.  

Americans didn't shove hoses down Japanese throats, fill the captured stomachs with water and stomp on them like the japanese did.  Americans didn't force POW's to work in and help build Japanese aircraft, the japanese did.  American's didn't perform six Vivisection's (live autopsy, without anesthesia) in 1945, after a B-29 crashed and the prisoners were full coherent as whole lungs were removed, pieces of liver were removed, one doctor even stopped a heart with his hand, but the Japanese did.

I miss you grandpa, Semper Fi, Do or Die!

Jay
« Last Edit: May 07, 2002, 09:13:40 AM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Hazed,

I'm with you 100% on the joke of U-571.   Das Boot is one of the best WWII movies out there.  Good call, man.

Jay
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http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline midnight Target

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Don't ya just hate it when film makers from another country play fast and loose with history?

Title: Breaking the Sound Barrier (1952 - British)

Directed by: David Lean
Starring:  Nigel Patrick, Ralph Richardson, Ann Todd
Reviewed by:  "Rambo"

A fictionalized account of the race to break the sound barrier in a manned aircraft. The sexism of an earlier age stands out as unintentionally funny in this quintessential 'right-stuff' film where devil-may-care, ex-RAF test pilots do what they must while their wives and sweethearts struggle to understand the meaning of it all. Nevertheless, the romance of aviation is as well represented here as in any other work. In a nice touch, Director Lean (best known for his epics 'the Bridge over the River Kwai' and 'Lawrence of Arabia') gives the vintage jet aircraft used in the production credits as if they had been part of the crew.

For an interesting and humorous aside, see 'The Right Stuff' by Tom Wolfe for the story of how 'Chuck' Yeager, the pilot who actually broke the sound barrier, had to contend with the legends established by this film.

;)

Offline Grendel

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Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target

For an interesting and humorous aside, see 'The Right Stuff' by Tom Wolfe for the story of how 'Chuck' Yeager, the pilot who actually broke the sound barrier, had to contend with the legends established by this film.


Except Chuck Yeager was the 2nd person to break sound barrier :)

And if some claims about German pilot/s breaking sound barrier, maybe 3rd. Those claims are unproven and pretty impossible to prove anymore though.

Offline midnight Target

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If you are refering to the claims of the test pilots in the F-86, you may be correct.

But my point was that historical movies have been around for a long time, have come from many countries, and have usually been wrong.

Offline Replicant

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It isn't just recent films that are historically incorrect.  One film that jumps to mind is the film 'Cromwell'.  It appears to tell the story of Oliver Cromwell and his New Model Army and the English Civil War against the Royalists.

For starters Oliver Cromwell never had no New Model Army.  It was Fairfax, and it also showed Cromwell attending battles he never even attended!  Fairfax was more so the real leader of the Roundheads but because he didn't want to sign the death warrant for King Charles, Cromwell nipped in and signed the warrant and somehow took all the glory from all the senior Roundheads.

Anyway, yes, Das Boot is a fantastic film!  Brilliant!
NEXX

Offline Esme

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Vorticon, al any of us can do is read as much as we can about the events that took place, check for consistency/reality, and draw our own conclusions.  Even for those amid the fighting at the time this is true, as no one person would be privy to all the facts about any given situation of much conseqience.

There's a lot of dross about, both in books and in films; EVERY source caries with it the baggage of its creator, their biases, their understanding, their commitment to truth, their intent in producing their work... even having read a great many books about the second World War over more than two decades, I am still uncovering facets new to me.

With regard to a possible invasion of England by Germany, the problems were fourfold:

1. Lack of adequate transport shipping
2. Lack of an adequate strategic bomber
3. Lack of an adequate long-range fighter
4. A disorganised economy and confused leadership that wasted resources left right and centre.

The German fleet could not have withstood the Royal Navy in a large scale encounter without air supremacy.  The Luftwaffe did not have that air supremacy for a number of reasons. The one most ofte quoted was the fatal mistake of callng off the attacks on forward fighter airfields in England to attack London instead, but there were other factors.

If the German economy had been properly mobilised for war under a leadership that was more unified an coherent inpurpose, the LW would have had more planes and crew to man them, and the English may have lost the BoB anyway.

If Hitler and others in the hierarchy hadnt been so sure that all they needed was a TACTICAL air force to support the German army, then perhaps the 109 would have been equipped with drop tanks earlier, and other long-range fighter types than the Bf110 would have been developed. Had the Ju89 and Do19 been developed rather than cancelled, Germany would have had a first class 4-engined bomber force well before the UK and USA (an experimental derivative of the Ju89, the Ju390, did in fact fly with a few KM of New York from France during the course of the war).

The Japanese were already suffering from trade sanctions that were crippling their ability to fight when they attacked Pearl Harbour. They had ben fighting a war in China for several years already, don't forget. From their viewpoint, WW2 didnt start at Pearl Harbour, it started much earlier.  Japan needed to obtan fresh resources in order to keep its economy going, and militarily it saw the way to do that was by grabbing off large chunks of SE Asia and Indonesia.  

That would necessarily involve attacking the overseas possesions of several Eurpean countries, however, and almost inevitably the USA would get drawn into the conflct. So Pearl Harbour was, militarily, a sensible attempt to strike such a devastating blow against the US fleet that the USA might be persuaded to stay out of any further fighting. The Japanese were unlucky in that the US carrier fleet wasnt there when they attacked, and in that they misjudged the charatcer of America as a state, expecting them to be much more wary of going to war than they were.

Had the Japanese not attacked Pearl Harbour, the Amercans might have been slower to get nvolved in the war, but almost inevitaly WOULD have been involved anyway.  Thus Pearl harbour was a calculated risk that went astray, not stupidity, m'dear.

An interesting point is to consider whether, if Germany had succeeded in invading mainand Birtain, Russia would have still been able to fight off the Germans anyway. Given the size of the country and its natural resources, I rather think they would have. They might have take a year or two longer to do it, but I think 1946 would have seen the Red Army in Berlin anyway.  

Mind you, to some extent that depends on what would have happened in North Africa and the Middle and Far East.  Would the US have stepped in to help Britis/Empire forces defend Egypt and use Egypt as a base to conduct raids against Axis-held Europe? Would the Western Alies have been invading Italy  as the Russians started pushing the Germans back into Poland and the Balkan States, leaving Britain the last Axis-held country to be liberated?

Anyway, that you're keen on history is good, Vorticon, just try to be a little more thoughtful in your postings and you ont get laughed at. With regard to your comments about aircraft, the thing to bear in mind is that the MA in AH bears very little resemblance to actual WW2 conditions. WW2 pilots couldnt grab whatever plane they liked whe they liked, and their utility was governed by hard physics, not the limitations of tryong to program a virtual reality.  WW2 pilots flew as if their lives depended on it - because they DID depend on it. Not many people fly like that in the MA!

Good luck with both your flying in AH and your studies of history!

!

Esme

Offline Steven

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Vorticon,

<>

You are correct that you have every right to feel whatever it is you feel about the war.  However, facts are facts and when you wish to believe in something based in ignorance sans research, then you don't do yourself any favors (and you look like a complete fool at least in my eyes.)  Also be aware that we judge you based on those things we know about you which basically consists entirely of your postings on this BBS.  It's your right to go around thinking like an imbecile, but don't fault us for judging you when you make your imbecility public.  

Your spelling is atrocious and so I'm guessing you are still in the elementary grades.  Fourth of fifth?  One thing you have going for you is that you are active on these boards which is a great place to learn opinions to make your own conclusions as well as just plain facts.  Take care.

Offline SKurj

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finally got the chance to see Das Boot last weekend... (pc was broke lol)

Great flick! everything I had been told was true...

They did step away from realism briefly in places, but hey, not yer typical Hollywood trash +)


SKurj