Author Topic: Some 262 Info, Verrrry Interesting  (Read 562 times)

Offline Airscrew

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Some 262 Info, Verrrry Interesting
« on: April 04, 2002, 12:13:04 PM »
http://www.geocities.com/lastdingo/aviation/r4m.htm

Found this while I was looking for some other stuff.  Thought it was interesting that the 262 and 190 could be armed with R4M rockets.   Does anybody have a information on this that can verify this?


The R4/M Orkan wonder weapon, 1945

In 1942, the threat by well-protected B-17F bombers called for a new weapon.
because nothing else was available, WGr21 were used to disrupt the B-17F "combat box" formations from 1943 on.
That was a big and primitive 210mm rocket launched out of a tube and originally designed for ground-to-ground combat.
Its drag was so big that fighter carrying two or four of them had a big problem with the escort fighters.
Further was its precision bad (no proximity fuse) and its 40,8kg warhead by far oversized for its purpose.

At this time fritz Heber (who also built the famous MG-synchronization in 1915 as mechanician for twittler) invented a simple rocket with a propellant chemical (Diglykol) that was in use since many years. Immediately, 20.000 rockets were ordered, and until warīs end 10.000 or 12.000 built and delivered (Nowarra gives both numbers on one page).

It was tested on Me262A-1a by the infamous elite unit JV44 and contributed a lot to the fame of the JV44 and the Me262A-1a.
Around 60 Me262A-1a recieved each 14 R4M under each outer wing, and the Mk108 gunsight was used for this weapon, too, because of the similar ballistics. In just one sortie, 25 B-17G were killed without losses with the R4M (out of 425). But "conventional" fighters like the Fw190 had also stunning success with this weapon; a group of 24 Fw190 killed without losses 40! B-17G during a strong bomber raid in april, 1945.

Overall, Nowarra (and other authors) wrote that around 500! enemy planes were destroyed
(by just around 10.000 rockets; thatīs a ratio of at least around one per sortie because each plane had just 24 rockets!)

R 4/M : R=Rakete, 4=4kg weight, M=Minenkopf (mine warhead)
One hit was usually enough for destroying a B-17G or B-24J.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2002, 12:18:15 PM »
Yes these rockets were used quite much. The 262 could carry 12 under each wing, making a total of 24 (if my numbers are correct, your sources say 14 under each wing). They were used with success and alot of us have requested them but as it is now it doesn't look like we'll get them, for any plane :(
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline spitfiremkv

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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2002, 09:00:33 PM »
I think your figures are a bit exagerrated,and probably based on claims by Luft pilots. And we all know that claims and reality are often related by a factor up to 5 :)

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2002, 09:15:30 PM »
spitfiremkv,

at least in case of allied pilots.

Offline spitfiremkv

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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2002, 09:18:43 PM »
fishu-in any case

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2002, 11:14:10 PM »
it's fokker
not twittler

he was not a german he was dutch
:)

Offline Airscrew

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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2002, 11:56:46 PM »
Hey Bug,  I fixed as much of that guys spelling as I could.  I gave up,  he needs to get a functioning spell checker.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2002, 02:09:17 AM »
Most of the German claims late in warwere counted by ground crew aswell, specially when it came to downed bombers.

You'll see that allies, in fact overclaimed alot more then the German during most theaters.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2002, 03:27:17 AM »
There were an excelent 190 web with pictures of D9 carrying R4Ms. Probably the late A versions also used that weapon.

Offline MadBirdCZ

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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2002, 03:49:35 AM »
And the launch racks/rails for R4M rockets were made of wood as is stated in one book I have about 262s and 163s :)

Offline fdiron

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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2002, 03:57:34 AM »
Those rockets must have been horribly powerful.  40 B17s shot down in a single raid is a huge loss of material and manpower (400 men).  Whats even more astounding is that the Luftwaffe could even muster 24 Fw190s in April of 1945.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2002, 04:30:54 AM »
There were plenty of planes available in the last few months of the war. Good pilots and fuel were the issue.  However 24 planes  was doable by the LW in spring 1945.

Offline illo

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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2002, 04:45:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
fishu-in any case

Wrong. Finnish claims were less than number in soviet  aircrafts lost in fight against finns(by soviet sources).

Also Jagdwaffe scoring was quite precise there must have been wrecks of those bombers before any claims would go through. And offical confirmation for kills had to be waited sometimes for a year.

Offline hazed-

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Some 262 Info, Verrrry Interesting
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2002, 07:31:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Those rockets must have been horribly powerful.  40 B17s shot down in a single raid is a huge loss of material and manpower (400 men).  Whats even more astounding is that the Luftwaffe could even muster 24 Fw190s in April of 1945.


24? hehe you really need to read up more.

Galland and others had requested a reserve of planes in late 1944 and it approached a thousand!

thats a reserve! so thats added to the ones in operation.

Gallands plan was to attack the Bomber raids with a thousand fighters all at once.This would have undoubtedly been very effective and a devastating attack.

Unfortunately for Galland(but not us :D), Hitler decided to use this entire reserve in the ill fated boddenplatte raid on jan 1st 1945.
The pilots were all high alt flyers and Galland protested that it took much training to be proficient at ground attack but he was ignored.The attack was indeed a total failure in that most were killed or crashed.Many even killed by their own flak batteries whilst others were lost because of lack of experience at tree top navigation.
The cream of hitlers remaining experts were devastated in this attack.
From then on it wasnt the lack of aircraft,In fact if you check the figures of production they continued to rise each year as the war progressed, it was the lack of fuel and pilots as grunherz has mentioned.

24 planes? this is barely 2 staffel i think. There were many more than this.In fact more than that number flew to germany from the beseiged pocket near the baltic sea(cant remember the name).
they flew back to germany with all manner of ground crew,women even children in the last ditch evacuation before the russians captured them.They wanted to surrender to the Americans rather than the Russians.I have a picture of a ground crewman in the fuselage of a 190! it looks very strange and very cramped.theres also a mention of a pilot who had a mother in the fuselage and her 2 children in the cockpit! one on each knee.

You are very mistaken if you think LW numbers were so low.The whole of Germany was not overun. Berlin and thus Hitler fell long before the British and Americans were able to overrun all of the bases etc.
Also the veiw we have of the 2nd ardennes offensive of how the skies cleared and in came the planes to save the day.Well they did but there rarely a mention of the huge airbattles at this time.
There were loads of aerial fights but they are hardly known about.It doesnt suit the story much to discuss them when its a report to civilians.They just get told 'the airforces releived the troops' and these things stick to this day.The details are pretty much ignored.

It always amazes me how people have such a one sided veiw of the war.The more you think things were easy the more you fail to understand the difficulty we faced as the allies and the sacrifice.There were several occations after normandy where it appeared the Germans were FAR from finished.Boddenplatte was a total surprise to our forces.Propaganda claimed the LW was finished but the servicemen knew better.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2002, 07:37:41 AM by hazed- »