Time to play hardball

[AKIron]

(AP) - Al-Qaida and Taliban forces are distributing pamphlets that offer rewards for dead or captured Westerners and threaten Afghans who support the U.S.-led coalition, U.S. Army officials said Friday. Maj. Iris Hurd said leaflets have been found in the last few weeks that offer $50,000 for a Westerner delivered dead and $100,000 for one who is alive.


Subject says it all.

[Wlfgng]

Time to stop playing...

[Maverick]

I agree. The only thing that seems to make any impact on the way the middle easteners act is an overwhelming force. We can't bomb them into the stoneage, they like that time frame too much.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Wlfgng
Time to stop playing...

I'm certain that the U.S. Navy does not consider this a game.

[Octavius]

[Wlfgng]

you should know that's not how I meant it.

I meant, stop being 'nice' and 'neat' about it.  These people don't abide by any 'rules' to speak of, and by that I mean scruples/limits as known to the west.  They will only respond to what affects their day to day lives...

propoganda, carpet and/or precision bombing, predictable tactics on our part, etc...
these things worked in the Gulf but they aren't going to work with bands of nomadic fighters.

Overwhelming force is unfortunately the only thing that will work in the short term.

[Dowding]

So all along, the forces in Afghanistan have been holding back and not trying hard enough? lol

You seem to be assuming the allied forces have been targetting some kind of structured army located in villages, towns and cities, with smart bombs. You imply we should now forget about civilian losses and carpet bomb until doomsday.

Unfortunately, this little fantasy is completely absurd given that the al-queda forces are holed up in mountain refuges and away from population centres.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Dowding
So all along, the forces in Afghanistan have been holding back and not trying hard enough? lol

You seem to be assuming the allied forces have been targetting some kind of structured army located in villages, towns and cities, with smart bombs. You imply we should now forget about civilian losses and carpet bomb until doomsday.

Unfortunately, this little fantasy is completely absurd given that the al-queda forces are holed up in mountain refuges and away from population centres.

You assume too much. We've been walking lightly due to our sensitivity to Afghanistan's Islamic neighbors. By playing hardball I mean it's time to take the "kid gloves" off and do whatever it takes to get (kill) every last one of the Taliban bastards. If that means temporarily suspending constitutional freedoms then so be it. If it means putting a LOT of pressure on Saudia Arabia and Pakistan then so be it.

The United States and it's allies are the most powerful nations in the world. It's time we realized that and help others to realize it too.

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by AKIron


You assume too much. We've been walking lightly due to our sensitivity to Afghanistan's Islamic neighbors. By playing hardball I mean it's time to take the "kid gloves" off and do whatever it takes to get (kill) every last one of the Taliban bastards. If that means temporarily suspending constitutional freedoms then so be it. If it means putting a LOT of pressure on Saudia Arabia and Pakistan then so be it.

The United States and it's allies are the most powerful nations in the world. It's time we realized that and help others to realize it too.

What???  We have NOT been "walking lightly," AKIron. We have been doing everything we can DO over there to get the bad guys. Obviously you don't know of a concept called "guerella warfare" and THAT is what we're up against, my friend... They will hide out, strike at THEIR convience and it's up to us to figure out the good guys from the bad guys. Carpet bombing won't work because they are in caves.

Some of you got spoiled by our success in the Gulf War. This is a different kind of animal, and it will require different tatics. This is a war against terrorists, not Afghanistan. What do you propose we do- simply bomb Afghanistan  into nonexistance?? That would be fine, except for one small detail- The average Afghan citizen is NOT a Taliban Extremist, did NOT participate in 9-11, and is simply too preoccupied with finding food to eat and staying alive to give a rat's bellybutton about a war in the mountains.

In fact, if we HAD been "walking lightly" and handling the Taliban and Al-Qaida with "kid gloves" as you claim please give me your source, because what I see is a coalition doing everything in its power to destroy their enemy- which is how wars SHOULD be fought.

Now whose Constitutional Freedoms are you talking about "temporarily" suspending AKIron- and WHY??? Mine??? How in the HELL will suspending our Constitution help defeat the Taliban and Al-Qaida forces holed up in caves in Afghanistan??? That doesn't even make sense.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf

Now whose Constitutional Freedoms are you talking about "temporarily" suspending AKIron- and WHY??? Mine??? How in the HELL will suspending our Constitution help defeat the Taliban and Al-Qaida forces holed up in caves in Afghanistan??? That doesn't even make sense.

I think that would be more aimed at the sleepers currently hiding in the US and/or in various European countries.

The simple truth of the matter is that the law doesnt quite work on these kinda people, because the law was never created to deal with threats like these.

We should not grant them the full protection of our laws nor guard all their rights while they are busy plotting the destruction of our society. It is not only incredibly stupid, it is also a good way for a civilization to commit suicide.

Take these terrorist suspects currently in custody in various countries. What have they really done? Not much, nothing that would normally motivate any kind of punishment whatsoever. If we were to follow the law, they should all be released immediately...But we know that they are terrorists, we know that they have recieved Al Queida training, and we know that they will try to invent new ways to kill our civilians...so what are we to do about it? Should we just let them go about their business, because they are innocent until proven guilty? Problem is that they are pretty much innocent, up until those last few minutes when they hijack an aircraft and fly it into a building..then they are guilty. So how about all the conspiracy-crimes (dont know if thats the right word though...conspiring to commit murder etc)...yeah, good luck proving those Imagine going to court on 9-10 2000 and argue along the lines of: "You see your honour, the defendants were plotting to hijack a fully loaded passenger jet armed with nothing but boxcutters, murder the pilots and take over the controls and crash the jet into the WTC killing thousands of people...oh…and there were another 3 groups of terrorists plotting to hijack 4 jets at the same time". …right. Fact is, before 9-11 that only happened in Tom Clancy novels. And besides, even if you do manage to capture the terrorists and take them to court on conspiracy charges, you’d only end up with some slick defense attorney sliding in some observation on how the 4th cop arresting the defendants didnt have his badge visible, and therefore the arrests are illegal and they must all be let go immediately or some sh*t like that.

Simple fact of the matter is that the law cannot cope with this situation, because it is a situation the creators of the laws never took into consideration. And every society must have the right to bend or break the rights of its citizens if it is essential to the survival of the nation.[/b]

Take the Israeli law on torture. Torture is forbidden by law, but there is a "ticking bomb paragraph". In short it means that the police or military can use whatever means necessary in certain catastrophic situations to save lifes. For example if they know there is a hidden bomb in some city and only one person knows where the bomb is, then it would be ok to use "physical persuasion" to motivate that person to give up the location of that bomb.

The totally diddlyed up thing about the rest of the western civilization is that we dont have laws like that. If a terrorist hides a nuke in Stockholm, London or Washington DC, it would be illegal for the police in those three countries to torture the terrorist to find out where the nuke is, his rights are actually considered more important than the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people...pretty screwed up.

I know why the rights are there...to protect the innocents, better to let ten guilty go free than put one innocent in jail etc... bla bla bla

I'm sorry but I'd rather have 10 innocent civilians in jail or tortured than a nuke detonated in London.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf


What???  We have NOT been "walking lightly," AKIron. We have been doing everything we can DO over there to get the bad guys. Obviously you don't know of a concept called "guerella warfare" and THAT is what we're up against, my friend... They will hide out, strike at THEIR convience and it's up to us to figure out the good guys from the bad guys. Carpet bombing won't work because they are in caves.

Are you ignoring the part of my post about putting pressure on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? If you think the Taliban isn't being supported by factions in at least these 2 countries then you are being very naive. So far, at least publicly, we've "walked lightly" for fear of stepping on these folks toes. I think we should do whatever it takes to ensure their cooperatiion in rooting the Taliban out.

As far as suspending the constitution (obviously I'm speaking of the US), yes, watch, tap the phones, read the mail/email of anyone even remotely suspected of having Taliban/terrorist connections. Likely this already being done. You're very selfish if you're not willing to give up a bit of your privacy until this threat has been eliminated, IMO.

I don't think these guys are in caves, they are probably quite comfortable in one of the two or more countries I mentioned.

[Elfenwolf]

Actually I think the Saudis were involved up to their ears in 9-11, at least in the funding aspect. I don't know what kind of "pressure" we can put on the Saudis to do more to help us in the War on Terrorism, especially since they've declared their opposition to an attack on Iraq and, indeed, have stated such an attack on Iraq would be considered an attack on themselves. As for Pakistan, they're an independent nation and our only recourse might be to cut off foreign aid to them if they refuse to cooperate, but I question our authority to dictate what courses of action independent Nations must follow- is that the "Might Makes Right" doctrine?

The Middle East considers our War on Terrorism to be a War against Islam, and every time we mention expanding the ground war that many more moderate Arab States shift slightly to the other side. Guys, this is not the Gulf War- we have no allies among the Arab League.

Hortlund, I would be in favor of the sacrifice of constitutional rights if I thought it would prevent suicide attacks- unfortunately, it wouldn't. It's ironic you site Israel as an example of how to deal with suspected terrorists- it sure hasn't stopped the suicide bombings directed at their citizens now, has it?

I disagree our legal system isn't equipped to deal with this type of criminal threat. We have immigration laws that are being used to presently detain hundreds of foreign nationals suspected of being involved with 9-11, and after our last terrorist attack- the Oklahoma City bombing- our legal system dealt with Timothy McVeigh well enough, and I doubt the suspension of ALL our civil rights could have prevented that tragedy.

I understand the frustration and anger we ALL feel over the events in the Middle East since 9-11, and we're all on the same page with regards to punishing all those responsible. I honestly don't feel suspending our Civil Rights will accomplish our stated goals.

Thanks for your opinions AKIron and Hortlund, agree or not I value your right to state them.

[UserName]

Originally posted by AKIron
(AP) - Al-Qaida and Taliban forces are distributing pamphlets that offer rewards for dead or captured Westerners and threaten Afghans who support the U.S.-led coalition, U.S. Army officials said Friday. Maj. Iris Hurd said leaflets have been found in the last few weeks that offer $50,000 for a Westerner delivered dead and $100,000 for one who is alive.


Subject says it all.

Hot damn!

What's the mailing address? My grandmother is a westerner, and she's dead, so I'd qualify for the $50,000.

I wonder if my wife would mind me digging up her corpse...

Regardless, it's about time family starts paying off!

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Thanks for your opinions AKIron and Hortlund, agree or not I value your right to state them.

I can respect that.

[Fatty]

We need to offer money for people that hand out the leaflets.  Say something like, oh, $50,001 for a dead one, $100,001 for a live one.  Cheaper than smart bombs.