Author Topic: F4u climb rate ?  (Read 1894 times)

Offline BigCrate

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F4u climb rate ?
« on: April 06, 2002, 12:12:13 AM »
Ok my F4U climb rae ? is

Why does the F4U and P-47 climb so poorly???
I thought the F4U was a good climber. most version of the F4 in AH have the same paddle props as the P-38k was fitted with.
And all had well over 2000HP P&W 2800 engines. Plus those big gull wings.
So why does the F4 climb so poorly??

Cw
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Offline fdiron

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2002, 02:54:07 AM »
If I were going to guess I would say that the F4U doesnt climb well due to the shape of its wing.  Its probably a semi-semetric shape.  This is the reason a P51 pilot on the history channel gave for the P51 not being as good of a climber as the Spitfire.

Offline Citabria

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2002, 04:05:48 AM »
climb performance is just power to weight ratio.


more power, less weight = better climb.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Citabria

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2002, 04:09:45 AM »
the prop efficiency and aircraft drag etc also affect climb but not nearly as much as power to weight ratio
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline joeblogs

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f4u climb rate
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2002, 11:01:12 PM »
Going by the data, the f4u-1 ought to have just about the best climb rate of any pacific war plane.  Only the 109f or Spit9 should be clearly superior, and even then only at low altitude.  The trick is usually finding the best speed at which to climb... If that is not the case in AH, something is modeled wrong, or you've got a whole lot of gas on board...

-Blogs

Offline Tac

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2002, 11:12:24 PM »
because its a hog. It belongs down low snotting around the muck. :D :D

Offline Booky

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2002, 01:33:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tac
because its a hog. It belongs down low snotting around the muck. :D :D


Shut your trap, thats my baby your talking about :D

Booky

Offline fdiron

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2002, 01:40:31 AM »
A p51 can climb away from a spitfire at 200mph.

Offline fats

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2002, 02:04:08 AM »
If I recall right HT once said something about F4u's performance and how its poor prop efficiency at low speeds made it accelerate poorly. Maybe that has also something to do with climb?

This was in beta or shortly there after so I don't even pretend to remember 100% correctly.


// fats

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2002, 12:47:30 PM »
Heya's,

This question has been at the top of my list for years.

First things first. The power loading of the F4U-1 and 1D is amoung the best of all American fighters and better than any production model P38. The F4U-4 is far and away the best American fighter in this regard. Here is a quick breakdown of 1944 fighters except the F4U-1A from 1943 best to worst.

1. F4U-1D
Weight = 12,175LBS
HP= 2250

Power to weight ratio=5.411
 
2. P-38L
Weight = 17,500LBS
HP= 3200

Power to weight ratio= 5.468


3.F6F-5
Weight= 12,485LBS
HP=2250

Power to weight ratio= 5.54


4. P-51D
Weight 9611lbs (AH listed Normal Weight. 100% internal fuel is 10,100)
HP=1720

Power to weight= 5.58


5.P-47D-30
Weight= 14500
HP=2600

Power to weight =5.576.

6. F4U-1A (Empty wing tanks)
Weight=12,037
HP=2135 (later -1A's had 2250HP)

Power to weight ratio= 5.63 (5.34 with later 1944 HP)

Here are the drag Cdo of these A/C best to worst

1. P-51D = .017
2. F4U-1/1D= .020
3. P-47D= .022
4. F6F-5= .023
5. P-38L= .028

Based on this alone the F4U-1D should be the best climber/Accelerator amoung these A/C. However there is the question of prop efficiency. Well I know that there was a prop change right around 1944 that change the F4U prop from a 3 blade toothpic to a three blade paddle and it increased climb significantly. So why isn't it as good or better than the other A/C in AH?

All I can tell you is that anecdotally the F4U outclimbed most other fighters. I cannot however provide hard data to that effect. However this is what I do have.

1. In the test performed between the F4U-1A(2250HP 1944) and P-51B the F4U outclimbed the P-51 and reached a top speed of 365MPH at sea level and 430MPH at 20K.

2. In the test performed in late 1942 with a very early model F4U-1 against the captured A6M2 (Koga's Zero) the F4U was equal to if not slightly less in rate of climb up to 20K where the F4U was far superior.

3. In the 1944 test between the F4U-1D and A6M5 the F4U-1D was equal in climb up to 12k where it was 750FPM better and 500FPM superior at 17k and above. In the same test the F6F-5 was inferior up to 12k equal to 17K and superior above that alt.

4. In the test between the F4U-1D, F6F-3 and FW190A5 the F4U was SUPERIOR in climb at it's best climbing speeds of 160MPH and lower to both other A/C. It was slower in climb than the 190 at speeds above 160MPH(140Knots).

5. In a modern test in 1989 by a group of modern test pilots the F4U finished second to the F6F-5 in climb to 10K. It was superior to the P-51D and P-47D-30. The F6F however was 500lbs lighter than the F4U during this test. It would normally be 500Lbs heavier.

6. In Butch O'Hare's memoirs "Fatefull Rendevous" he comments on his squadron of F6F-3 taking a climb to 20,000ft challenge by the members of a F4U-1 Squadron in 1943. He says that it was widely  recognized that the F4U climbed approx. 750fpm better than the F6F-3 but they took the challenge anyway. His squadron lost the bet but "not by much" so he was satisfied.

I don't think Butch O'Hare was saying this for my benifit.

In any case I have power to weight and drag numbers that point towards this as well as annecdotal evidence and flight test data. However I do not have NAVAIR docs to prove otherwise. So I guess I will keep on searching.

Offline BigCrate

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2002, 03:16:51 PM »
DOA lots of good info!!! But I think your wrong on thinking that any f4 could out climb or stay with a spit or 109 in a climb.. I also think your wrong on thinking the f4s could out climb a P-38 any P-38. The 38s had a big damn aspect ratio mixed with a good power loading. And you got a P-38 climb rate :). I do think the hogs should be between the 51s climb and the 38s climb rate. Based on the info you gave.

Cw
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Offline joeblogs

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F4U and power loadings
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2002, 04:16:42 PM »
You've got a lot of apples and oranges going on in your comparisons.  Different propellers matter.  Different super chargers matter.  Different variants of the same engines matter.  An F4u1 with a 2250 HP engine was not a production model.  It was more likely an F4u-3 or -4.

Good data on the climb rates for various F4u types
can be found in the book US Navy Aircraft Since 1911 (Swanborough and Bowers?).  

A climb rate chart for the f4u-1 can be found in the pilot's manual.  

Standard aircraft Characteristics Charts for the F4u-4 can be found at http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/fighter.htm

All the numbers are quite impressive.  Not only does that f4u outclimb the F6f, but its forward rate of speed is also faster. It's also a great spiral climber, which many planes cannot do well.

The only wrinkle is that the best speed of climb for an F4u is closer to its stall speed than it is in an F6.  

-Blogs

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2002, 05:04:30 PM »
Heya Bigcrate,

I don't mean to say that the F4U should outclimb those Euro rockets like the 109 and Spit. I'm not crazy and their power loading is much better than the F4U. That's why I listed the American A/C for referance. The P-38 climb is a function of more area of wing being hit with prop wash creating greater lift. However the F4U's acceleration should be better or at least equal to the P-38 based on power to weight and drag coefficient.

JoeBlogs,

The F4U is on area that I have more information on than anyone I have ever spoken too, including Pyro. I have many Vought original Docs, Flight Manuals and countless others.

The F4U HP.

F4U-1 early 2,000HP
F4U-1A early 2135HP
F4U-1D and late -1A 2250HP
F4U-3 with supercharger 2800HP
F4U-4 2450HP
F4U-5 2800HP
AU-1 I need to look at my books. The rest is from memory. I am not in my library right now.

Anyway I am sure I will post the docs shortly.

Offline hitech

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2002, 06:29:13 PM »
F4udoa, lift from prop wash does not effect climb rate.

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2002, 07:05:55 PM »
Hitech,

I have read that the addition wing area covered by prop wash increases the lift, as well as the the high aspect ratio adding to lift coefficient. Both A/C have the same Airfoil so why the increased climb rate when the F4U has power loading, Wing loading and drag on it's side. Also based on power loading and drag the F4U should accelerate better as well.

If I'm wrong great. But why??