Tunisia This Friday!

[brady]

I know for a fact that Typhoons were not operational in NA at this time, 2 or 3 were sent for operational testing only, Since my sources on the spit were a little ambigiuos I went with BUzz on the exclushion of the Spit 9 in NA.

[Kieran]

Oops, found a reference. No.72 RAF received MkIXs in February 1943, with the rest of the RAF Med forces being upgraded to Mk Vs, VIIIs, and IXs by mid-1943.

Page 32, Supermarine Spitfire, Chaz Bowyer, 1980.

[hazed-]

spit 9 should be there and the typhoon certainly shouldnt.

put typhoons in and we'd never see another hurricane up

i also feel p38ls and p51b are a bit superior but by no means unbeatable.
I would like to see a few more of those winning fights in them admitting they have an advantage rather than gloating though.

My personal thoughts on introducing incorrect models as substitutes?

First if a model is a later and superior one, some sort of penalty must be imposed.Either a low eny value so score is much lower or for a perk cost.
Id then try and find a similar performing enemy aircraft and allow it too but perked for same cost.

in the case of the P38L in tunisia(much later model)?

3 perks and add 110g2 for 3 perks

in the case of p51b(much later model but some sources claim alison was better low alt performer)?

2 perks and add 109g6 for 2 perks

at least this way neither side can complain there is no 'leveler' or at least an attempt at it.So far though the p51b and p38 havent flooded into the arena and spoiled the 43 aspect too much so I'd leave it as is unless people start to get annoyed by it.

I feel this is an impoortant area in the CT.We cant claim historical realism in matchups if we keep using later models for one side but not the other.In the Germany map it was agreed the 190a8 was a good replacement for the 190a6 BUT was only asked for because the Allies already had several 'substitute' planes it was needed to make people feel it was fairer and to close the performance gap a little(though not by much).
Now we have the 110G2 we have a reasonably similar jabo platform to p38L so putting one in if the other is there seems fairer to me.For instance if the US got the earlier P38 that actually WAS there in 43 then the me110G2 gets dropped too.
Likewise the p51b.If we get a p51a then the 109g6 gets dropped.

doesnt this seem more fair to you guys??

To be honest Tunisia is such fun i havent got annoyed by the p38and p51b much if at all.I at least have a couple of good aircraft to fight them with in the 109g2 and 190a5.This is really a comment on ALL setups.Especially PTO where it really does notice a whole lot more.

Oh and before some fool comes in claiming 5mph or a few loadout changes dont make a difference I say 'UTTER BS' when im in rolling scissors/rope a dopes/dives/climbs or very near to catching an enemy even a few mph or a few HP make ALL the difference.and im sure those that claim it doesnt matter are well aware of it also .



anyway thats my veiw but then im not a CM

YET

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by Kieran
Oops, found a reference. No.72 RAF received MkIXs in February 1943, with the rest of the RAF Med forces being upgraded to Mk Vs, VIIIs, and IXs by mid-1943.

Page 32, Supermarine Spitfire, Chaz Bowyer, 1980.

TY very much Kieren.

So will it be enabled brady?

[brady]

 OK where was No. 72 squaderon? in Tunisia? I will eneble it just give me a litle more info and some mony:)


                       

[Kieran]

From the same reference as stated before:

Although the bulk of Spitfires supplied to Africa in the initial months of the war were predominantly Mark Vs, in February 1943  No 72 Squadron was re-equipped with Mark IXs from Gibraltar, and within six months became the highest-scoring unit.

I am looking for a specific reference to any squadron that flew IXs in Tunisia. Don't take this wrong; I like the setup as it is. I'm just curious at this point. The only thing I am pretty sure of is IXs were in Africa in 1943, but not sure about whether they were in Tunisia or not.

[Kieran]

In September 1942, the Squadron moved to North Africa to support the Tunisian campaign before moving on to Malta the following year with the updated Spitfire IX.

Here's a quick source

[Karnak]

Pongo says that the P-51B, P-38L and Mosquito should all be taken out.

Allies should only have the Spitfire Mk Ia, Spitfire Mk V, Hurricane Mk I, Hurricane Mk IIc and Hurricane Mk IId.

[SKurj]

The arena seems fairly well balanced in the CT as is...

why F#CK with it!!!!!!!!!!!??????????


SKurj

[Buzzbait]

S!

There may have been a few Mk IX's, but they were in the distinct minority.   By far the largest number of Med Spits were Spit V's, including those serving with the USAAF.

Even into late '43, the Brits tended to upgrade the engines in the Spit V's to LF model rather than replace them with IX's.  And in '44 the V's were replaced with VIII's in the Med.

If IX's are in the setup, they should be a 3 point perk in my opinion.

[Pongo]

No by all means add the 38l so that lightning fans want to play your game. Dont pretend its for historical reasons or play ballence.
Add a merlin mustang. One of the best planes made in the war period and one that wasnt in the war in the desert at all. Add it so that Pony fans will play your game and dont pretend it was anything like an A36 or a P51a. It is ahistorical and unballencing.

Add the Mossi for some mis begotten reason. The Hurri 2 isnt enough I guess. So you have a rocket equiped mossi in a theater that never saw any such thing. Nor the rockets I bet. We actually have the actual ground attack plane of choice in theater for the allies but that is not enough. Lets invent one. Instead of the P40s that the allies actually struggled with they have Pony Bs. LOL


The Spit IX WAS in north africa. In as many numbers as the 190A5 was.

Why even pretend that these two US planes were not added as concesions to their fans to try to attact them to the CT?
Putting in a Pony B as a filler for the A36 is like putting in a Ta152 as a filler for a 190A4.

I just think its hillarios that the game can be fudged in advance for the Allied players. Hillarios.

[brady]

"No by all means add the 38l so that lightning fans want to play your game. Dont pretend its for historical reasons or play ballence. "

  Yes it is true I have attracted quiet a few new players by the adation this airplane to the plane set, realy far more than I had hoped for considering I added it for the reasions I stated and not the one's you sugest. In fact the hords of P 38 fans are simply overruning the north of the map, it's realy quiet a problem, in fact the front has compleatly stagnated in the sector they are available in. Please excuse my rampent sacarsim:) If I had the Proper P 38 I would of gladely used it, much the same can be said for the La-5FN and the Yak 9T in the Stalengrad set up, niether of which saw combat in stalengrad but were all I had to work with.



"Add a merlin mustang. One of the best planes made in the war period and one that wasnt in the war in the desert at all. Add it so that Pony fans will play your game and dont pretend it was anything like an A36 or a P51a. It is ahistorical and unballencing. "

 I realy do not think it has made one bit of a difference what so ever, If memory servies the A model actualy preformed better at lower altitudes, They are rarely sean and hardely Unbalencing, and are available in the same sector as the P 38's, one of the bases they were available at A10 was retaken despite heavy fighting by both sides in a reasionable amount of time, hardely unbalencing, Ahistorical, yes, but given the right tool's I would of gladely used an "A" or a P 40 instead. Once again I added them for the reasions I stated and not those that you sugest.

"Add the Mossi for some mis begotten reason. The Hurri 2 isnt enough I guess. So you have a rocket equiped mossi in a theater that never saw any such thing. Nor the rockets I bet. We actually have the actual ground attack plane of choice in theater for the allies but that is not enough. Lets invent one. Instead of the P40s that the allies actually struggled with they have Pony Bs. LOL "

 My referance sources state that the Mossie was in theater, even so for the sake of argument we could say it is representave, of British ground atack aircraft like the Beaufighter, once again I am forced to make do with what I have to work with.


"The Spit IX WAS in north africa. In as many numbers as the 190A5 was."

  I could of left out the FW entirely I supose, once again if I had an A4 I would of used it.

"Why even pretend that these two US planes were not added as concesions to their fans to try to attact them to the CT? "

   lol , once again I added them for the reasions I stated.


 " Putting in a Pony B as a filler for the A36 is like putting in a Ta152 as a filler for a 190A4. "

  A bit over dramatic, I think that if they were actualy hvaing the effect all this sugest's  the allies would of wone the battle several times over, they have not in fact, I rarely see these planes.

 

"I just think its hillarios that the game can be fudged in advance for the Allied players. Hillarios."

  How much time have you spent in the CT this set up?

   16min and 32 seconds! Zero kills! for the entire tour?!

    Man I hope I have the wrong guy, I hope I did not waste a lot of time responding to this for a player who has 16min and 32 seconds in the CT and Zero kills...


   hmmm, aside from the time he may or may not of spent in the CT this tour he did raise a few points that merited comment on, and did speak some truths.

 The primary point his post illustrated is this, we do not have compleat plane set for the entire war, and are forced to make concestions for the sake of gameplay, fortunately HTC is adding new planes all the time and this wil cease to be a big problem in the future, Ultmataily I decided to add these planes and I bear the responsabality for the plane set. I do howeaver feal it is a balenced one.

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by Buzzbait
S!

There may have been a few Mk IX's, but they were in the distinct minority.   By far the largest number of Med Spits were Spit V's, including those serving with the USAAF.

Even into late '43, the Brits tended to upgrade the engines in the Spit V's to LF model rather than replace them with IX's.  And in '44 the V's were replaced with VIII's in the Med.

If IX's are in the setup, they should be a 3 point perk in my opinion.

Well you went from saying there were "no spit9's in NA" (by your sources of course) to now well maybe there were a few.

Hey, it is a great terrain, and when the arena has good numbers its alot of fun. Depending on what bases are owned by who.

I tend to agree that the having the p-51, p-38, were added (in out of the way bases) to attract folks.  The FW190 was added at all bases for whatever reason, while the RAF's answer to it, the spit9, was ommited completely. I will take a stab at it and say it was to squelch some whines about this great AC's performance and to ensure good numbers on the axis side.

So, that said, its OK to be honest and say we set this arena up based on reaction rather than on history, or maybe a little mix...I dont know:)

[Kieran]

Hold on gents. Is it possible, just slightly, that Brady added the planes for the reasons he stated?

Is the arena balanced? I've played both sides, and I think so. I have not felt overwhelmed on either side.

Is the arena overwhelmed by P38s and P51s? I've yet to see one of either anywhere.

Do both sides have roughly equivalent offensive power? Yes. The Ju88 carries a huge load, the Mossie is fast.

Does anyone setting up a CT have to work within the planeset to carefully select planes that will work within the timeframe/map, and in doing so have to make compromises? Yes, but this does not mean they are doing so to avoid whines.

There is no reason to begin screaming "Bias!". To me, this is the best arena and the best total setup yet. Just my opinion of course, but the fights have been fun.

Could the arena live without a couple of the planes? Of course it could, just like it could live with a couple more. Is it just me, or is the setup not fun like it is? Spit IX? Hey, sorry to even go looking for it, I was merely interested, not trying to stir up trouble. Naive of me, I suppose. FWIW, I could not find any specific Squadron No.s that flew Spit IXs in Tunisia, just general references to them being used in Africa. I would not be ready to change anything until I could prove it, and maybe not even then. IMHO, the arena is fine without them.

[Sabre]

I've played both sides in this set up.  It is IMNSHO the most balanced planeset (after BoB, of course:)) we've had yet.  I've not seen one P-38 or P-51 in there yet, btw.  We're not going for 100% historical accuracy, as we don't have the planeset to support it.  What we're going for is a balanced arena, which Brady has done a great job of providing (with Nuttz help;)).  So fly it and enjoy it.  I know I am:D.

Sabre