Author Topic: What's happening in Jenin?  (Read 1975 times)

Offline Samm

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2002, 09:23:21 AM »
Isrealis are palestinians too . Palestine is just a region . The old european antisemitic line "go back to palestine jew" has been around for a hundred years. Longer than Isreal or the PLO . I know it's irrelevant . Just thought I'd throw it in here .

Offline Staga

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2002, 09:58:17 AM »
Bad news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1920000/1920463.stm

Looks like military operations in west-bank are not capable to stop suicide-bombings in Israel. It's already clear (for me at least) that using military power is not a answer to crise in middle-east.

Offline Eagler

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2002, 10:41:34 AM »
Trying to image such carnage on an US Interstate or major highway, I can't.

If we had a country doing that to our citizens, and "normal" military operations could not stop it, I think you'd see poll numbers in the majority calling for the use of nukes on the offending country/countries.

I applaud Israel's restraint.
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Offline Hortlund

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2002, 10:49:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Looks like military operations in west-bank are not capable to stop suicide-bombings in Israel. It's already clear (for me at least) that using military power is not a answer to crise in middle-east.


Just out of curiosity Staga...what is your answer to the crisis?

And please do remember that any kind of diplomatic solution MUST solve these 4 issues:

1. Jerusalem
2. Water rights
3. Palestinian refugees
4. Jewish settlers

And please, at least try to come up with a serious answer here. Something realistic that both sides could actually agree on.

My bet is that you cant come up with the solution. In fact...I dont think there is a solution. At least not a diplomatic one. The issues involved are simply too complicated, with the parties gridlocked in hopeless situations.

My solution:
Pull CNN and every other news agency out of the area for 1 month. Disable all comunications to and from Israel during that month. Open up refugee camps on Greenland, and offer anyone wanting to leave the region safe passage to those camps.

Offline Dowding

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2002, 10:56:59 AM »
Strangely enough, Eagler, when US-bought semtex was blowing up pubs and bars in England (killing dozens and injuring hundreds) in the 1970s, there wasn't much call for the nuking of America or Ireland... ;)

Peace cannot be imposed by military might alone. Dialogue is the way forward, and Northern Ireland is an example of this. Only by opening communications with the IRA was any appreciable progress made. It's been painful, no doubt. Especially when you have bastards like Martin McGuinness visiting Tony Blair at No.10 - a man who 30 years previously had been commanding an IRA 'detachment' on Bloody Sunday.

Sure the Palestinians had a peace deal, but let's not forget that the recent violence was sparked by Sharon himself, visiting a certain mosque in Jerusalem. Not a very sensitive thing to do, but perfectly agreeable if you wanted to stir up a hornets nest for the existing administration. And when that hornet's nest became a little fierce? Hey, look who it is! Sharon the hard-liner, ready to step into breach, take over from the incompetent moderates and hold back the tide of anti-Israeli violence.

Has his ploy worked?

In terms of the advancement of Sharon's political career - yes.

In terms of reducing the number of kids put in holes in the ground (on both sides of the equation) - no. He's failed utterly.
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Offline Hortlund

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2002, 11:04:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
let's not forget that the recent violence was sparked by Sharon himself, visiting a certain mosque in Jerusalem.


Hmm..yes, how foolish of him to think that he could travel wherever he wanted inside the capital of his own country.

And the palestinian response was both justifyable and well-proportioned.

"You walk within 100m of our Mosque, we send in the suicide bombers to blow your women and children to bits"

Offline Eagler

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2002, 11:10:22 AM »
I agree Dowding but Martin McGuinness had enough control of his followers to have them stop the bombing long enough for the talks to take hold

Arafat doesn't
Martin McGuinness = Arafat (anyone remeber when the PLO was nothing but a terrorist org?)
The Pals - the crazy ones with the bombs - are animals running wild. No control or leadership.

Just heard the bomber that killed the soldiers yesterday may have been as young as 10 years old. Ten! Did the IRA recruit 10year olds? Suicide bombers? As bad as they were, the Pals are worse ... no reguard for human life. To die for their cause is better than living. How do you talk to ppl with that mindset? What the frig is "their cause"?
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Offline Mighty1

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2002, 11:20:13 AM »
Gosh Babek- it must be wonderful to be you.

Look the "cycle of hate" was ended(not that you could really end hate) by war Not great politicians(can you really call ANY politician great?).

Plus I'm not sure I can blame Sharon for doing what he's doing. I mean he goes to the table for talks and his people get killed. He tries to listen to other countries who say stop the violence and talk and his people get killed. How many people have to die before he should do what HE thinks is going to stop the killing?

War criminal that's to funny. Moron!

More Babek- Babble!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2002, 11:25:21 AM by Mighty1 »
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Offline Nashwan

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2002, 11:35:19 AM »
Quote
Israel offered about 97% of the west bank, most of gaza and part of Jerusalem and it was turned down. You can't get better than that. So get real. The pals will NEVER accept any peace offer from the Israelis. They are looking to drive the Jews out by violence and will accept nothing less.

Barak, in desperation, offered the Palestinians just about everything they wanted, except sole control over Jerusalem. For that they suggested some kind of joint arrangement

Barak offered 90% of the West Bank and Gaza, but split up into 4 zones by Israeli settlements and security zones. In other words, fragments of a country.

The Israelis deal also stipulated all external border crossings were to be Israeli controlled, so any time they wanted to pressure the Palestinians they could cut them off from contact with the outside world.

Israel needs to offer a pull-out from the settlements, and an independant Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.

Why are the settlements there? Can anyone seriously suggest the settlements help Israeli security, or help promote peace?

The settlement in Hebron, for eample, contains approx 400 Jews. Heron has a population of 120,000 Arabs. 30,000 of those Arabs live under martial law in the security zone set up to protect the 400 settlers.

When 29 Palestinians were murdered by one of the settlers, Baruch Goldstein, Israel imposed a 30 day curfew on the 30,000 Palestinians, and took no action against the settlers.

There won't be peace until the settlers are gone. Unfortunately, the settler groups have considerable power in Israel, and the current Israeli government seems to be more concerned about increasing settlement than bringing peace.

The on-going violence suits extremists on both sides, the Palestinians who want to destroy Israel, and the Israelis who want to expel the Palestinians and incorporate the West Bank into "Greater Israel".

Offline Staga

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2002, 11:56:53 AM »
Hortlund:
Quote

"As for international watercourses, the 1997 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses provides that states sharing an international watercourse “shall in their respective territories utilize an international watercourse in an equitable and reasonable manner” (Article 5(1)). The principle of equitable utilization applies to surface waters and ground water systems, parts of which are situated in different States. In 1997, the International Court of Justice recently affirmed that this principle constitutes a norm of customary international law. Pending the establishment of the Palestinian state, the Palestinian people enjoy the right to an equitable and reasonable share of international watercourses in accordance with international law."
-----
"Aggregate consumption of water by Palestinians is approximately 260 Mcm/yr, or only 13% of the capacity of renewable water in historic Palestine. Aggregate Israeli use amounts to 1760 Mcm/yr. Yearly per capita consumption in Palestine amounts to 80 m3, less than one-third of the amount in Israel."


Issues with water, Jerusalem and refugees should be handled in U.N and international courts (Oh I forgot your opinion about U.N; sorry...).
Israeli settlements have no rights to be in occupied areas. World doesn't need another country using "lebensraum" tactic.

Offline Staga

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2002, 11:59:50 AM »
Why did Camp David negoations went to hell" or in another words "What should be avoided when talking about peace in middle east":
Quote from "The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs" (Source: The Palestine Liberation Organization's Negotiations Affairs Department)

Quote

Why did the Palestinians reject the Camp David Peace Proposal?
For a true and lasting peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, there must be two viable and independent states living as equal neighbors. Israel's Camp David proposal, which was never set forth in writing, denied the Palestinian state viability and independence by dividing Palestinian territory into four separate cantons entirely surrounded, and therefore controlled, by Israel. The Camp David proposal also denied Palestinians control over their own borders, airspace and water resources while legitimizing and expanding illegal Israeli colonies in Palestinian territory. Israel's Camp David proposal presented a 're-packaging' of military occupation, not an end to military occupation.


Didn't Israel's proposal give the Palestinians almost all of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967?
No. Israel sought to annex almost 9% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories and in exchange offered only 1% of Israel's own territory. In addition, Israel sought control over an additional 10% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories in the form of a "long-term lease". However, the issue is not one of percentages - the issue is one of viability and independence. In a prison for example, 95% of the prison compound is ostensibly for the prisoners - cells, cafeterias, gym and medical facilities - but the remaining 5% is all that is needed for the prison guards to maintain control over the prisoner population.
Similarly, the Camp David proposal, while admittedly making Palestinian prison cells larger, failed to end Israeli control over the Palestinian population.


Did the Palestinians accept the idea of a land swap?
The Palestinians were (and are) prepared to consider any idea that is consistent with a fair peace based on international law and equality of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. The Palestinians did consider the idea of a land swap but proposed that such land swap must be based on a one-to-one ratio, with land of equal value and in areas adjacent to the border with Palestine and in the same vicinity as the lands to be annexed by Israel. However, Israel's Camp David proposal of a nine-to- one land swap (in Israel's favor) was viewed as so unfair as to seriously undermine belief in Israel's commitment to a fair territorial compromise.

How did Israel's proposal envision the territory of a Palestinian state?
Israel's proposal divided Palestine into four separate cantons surrounded by Israel: the Northern West Bank, the Central West Bank, the Southern West Bank and Gaza. Going from any one area to another would require crossing Israeli sovereign territory and consequently subject movement of Palestinians within their own country to Israeli control. Not only would such restrictions apply to the movement of people, but also to the movement of goods, in effect subjecting the Palestinian economy to Israeli control. Lastly, the Camp David proposal would have left Israel in control over all Palestinian borders thereby allowing Israel to control not only internal movement of people and goods but international movement as well. Such a Palestinian state would have had less sovereignty and viability than the Bantustans created by the South African apartheid government.

How did Israel's proposal address Palestinian East Jerusalem?
The Camp David Proposal required Palestinians to give up any claim to the occupied portion of Jerusalem. The proposal would have forced recognition of Israel's annexation of all of Arab East Jerusalem. Talks after Camp David suggested that Israel was prepared to allow Palestinians sovereignty over isolated Palestinian neighborhoods in the heart of East Jerusalem, however such neighborhoods would remain surrounded by illegal Israeli colonies and separated not only from each other but also from the rest of the Palestinian state. In effect, such a proposal would create Palestinian ghettos in the heart of Jerusalem.

Offline Staga

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2002, 12:00:34 PM »
continues....

Why didn't the Palestinians ever present a comprehensive permanent settlement proposal of their own in response to Barak's proposals?
The comprehensive settlement to the conflict is embodied in United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338, as was accepted by both sides at the Madrid Summit in 1991 and later in the Oslo Accords of 1993. The purpose of the negotiations is to implement these UN resolutions (which call for an Israeli withdrawal from land occupied by force by Israel in 1967) and reach agreement on final status issues. On a number of occasions since Camp David - especially at the Taba talks - the Palestinian negotiating team presented its concept for the resolution of the key permanent status issues. It is important to keep in mind, however, that Israel and the Palestinians are differently situated.
Israel seeks broad concessions from the Palestinians: it wants to annex Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem; obtain rights to Palestinian water resources in the West Bank; maintain military locations on Palestinian soil; and deny the Palestinian refugees' their right of return. Israel has not offered a single concession involving its own territory and rights. The Palestinians, on the other hand, seek to establish a viable, sovereign State on their own territory, to provide for the withdrawal of Israeli military forces and colonies (which are universally recognized as illegal), and to secure the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the homes they were forced to flee in 1948. Although Palestinian negotiators have been willing to accommodate legitimate Israeli needs within that context, particularly with respect to security and refugees, it is up to Israel to define these needs and to suggest the narrowest possible means of addressing them.


Why did the peace process fall apart just as it was making real progress toward a permanent agreement?
Palestinians entered the peace process on the understanding that (1) it would deliver concrete improvements to their lives during the interim period, (2) that the interim period would be relatively short in duration - i.e., five years, and (3) that a permanent agreement would implement United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338. But the peace process delivered none of these things. Instead, Palestinians suffered more burdensome restrictions on their movement and a serious decline in their economic situation. Israeli colonies expanded at an unprecedented pace and the West Bank and Gaza Strip became more fragmented with the construction of settler "by-pass" roads and the proliferation of Israeli military checkpoints. Deadlines were repeatedly missed in the implementation of agreements. In sum, Palestinians simply did not experience any "progress" in terms of their daily lives.

However, what decisively undermined Palestinian support for the peace process was the way Israel presented its proposal. Prior to entering into the first negotiations on permanent status issues, Prime Minister Barak publicly and repeatedly threatened Palestinians that his "offer" would be Israel's best and final offer and if not accepted, Israel would seriously consider "unilateral separation" (a euphemism for imposing a settlement rather than negotiating one). Palestinians felt that they had been betrayed by Israel who had committed itself at the beginning of the Oslo process to ending its occupation of Palestinian lands in accordance with UN Resolutions 242 and 338.


Doesn't the violence which erupted following Camp David prove that Palestinians do not really want to live in peace with Israel?
Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September, 1993. Nevertheless, Israel has yet to explicitly and formally recognize Palestine's right to exist. The Palestinian people waited patiently since the Madrid Conference in 1991 for their freedom and independence despite Israel's incessant policy of creating facts on the ground by building colonies in occupied territory (Israeli housing units in Occupied Palestinian Territory - not including East Jerusalem - increased by 52% since the signing of the Oslo Accords and the settler population, including those in East Jerusalem, more than doubled). The Palestinians do indeed wish to live at peace with Israel but peace with Israel must be a fair peace - not an unfair peace imposed by a stronger party over a weaker party.

Doesn't the failure of Camp David prove that the Palestinians are just not prepared to compromise?
The Palestinians have indeed compromised. In the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians recognized Israeli sovereignty over 78% of historic Palestine (23% more than Israel was granted pursuant to the 1947 UN partition plan) on the assumption that the Palestinians would be able to exercise sovereignty over the remaining 22%. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians accepted this compromise but this extremely generous compromise was ignored at Camp David and the Palestinians were asked to "compromise the compromise" and make further concessions in favor of Israel. Though the Palestinians can continue to make compromises, no people can be expected to compromise fundamental rights or the viability of their state.

Have the Palestinians abandoned the two-state solution and do they now insist on all of historic Palestine?
The current situation has undoubtedly hardened positions on both sides, with extremists in both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories claiming all of historic Palestine. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that the PA or the majority of Palestinians have abandoned the two- state solution. The two-state solution however is most seriously threatened by the on-going construction of Israeli colonies and by-pass roads aimed at incorporating the Occupied Palestinian Territories into Israel. Without a halt to such construction, a two-state solution may simply be impossible to implement - already prompting a number of Palestinian academics and intellectuals to argue that Israel will never allow the Palestinians to have a viable state and Palestinians should instead focus their efforts on obtaining equal rights as Israeli citizens.

Isn't it unreasonable for the Palestinians to demand the unlimited right of return to Israel of all Palestinian refugees?
The refugees were never seriously discussed at Camp David because Prime Minister Barak declared that Israel bore no responsibility for the refugee problem or its solution. Obviously, there can be no comprehensive solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict without resolving one of its key components: the plight of the Palestinian refugees. There is a clearly recognized right under international law that non-combatants who flee during a conflict have the right to return after the conflict is over. But an Israeli recognition of the Palestinian right of return does not mean that all refugees will exercise that right. What is needed in addition to such recognition is the concept of choice. Many refugees may opt for (i) resettlement in third countries, (ii) resettlement in a newly independent Palestine (though they originate from that part of Palestine which became Israel) or (iii) normalization of their legal status in the host country where they currently reside. In addition, the right of return may be implemented in phases so as to address Israel's demographic concerns.[/quote]

Offline Staga

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2002, 12:16:09 PM »

Offline ~Caligula~

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2002, 01:05:33 PM »
So if the pals want no jews living in their country,does that mean Israel has the rights to kick out all the arabs living inside Israel?

The Hamas said this week:they`ll accept no deal from Israel.They want Israel gone ,and they would let jews live there if they followed the laws of Islam.
Sounds like a great deal,an excellent display of tolerance.
Besides I doubt Arafat has any kind of control over the Hamas,and these dipshits just murdered another 8 civilians.
That`s not freedom fighting,that is coldbooded murder.
And either  You aggree or disaggree wether Israel`s right,if they get what they want by these attacks,it will send a clear messege to all the maniacs around the world,that terror IS a way to achive goals.

It will come to the point where Israel has no other choice but kick all pals out of the country.
Sad for the ones who would want to live in peace,but they are the ones who failed to control their lunatics.

Just like in WWII.Not all  germans were nazis,but they all payed for letting the mad ones have their way.

Offline Dowding

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What's happening in Jenin?
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2002, 01:38:54 PM »
Hortlund - lol Nothing is as a simple as that in the Middle East.

Sharon was a senior politician in Israel and a well-know bigot when it comes to Palestinians. His war record means he cannot even set foot in the EU without been arrested.

This considered, his actions were just a little irresponsible and inflammatory, don't you think?

Eagler - McGuinness DID not, and DOES not have control over his own kind. The 'Real IRA' splintered from the main organisation because the IRA was leaning towards peace and had declared a ceasefire.

They put a bomb in a car in Omagh and killed 38 people, and injured 100s more. From this incident, the current peace deal (Good Friday Agreement), was developed.

There's still sectarian violence happening at the moment, and drug related punishment beatings and knee-cappings are worse than ever, mainly committed by the IRA and loyalist terrorist organisations. The situation isn't quite as rosy as we'd like to believe.

Nashwan summed it up perfectly, I believe.

Caligula - when the arabs are gone, who is going to provide the cheap labour for the Israelis?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.