A question and a suggestion

[jmccaul]

  First a question 2 planes start off  exactly 180 degrees apart with equal energy states and they are turning in the vertical (i.e. Looping) one plane has better turning performance one has a better climb rate which will gain angles? Obviously it depends on a combination of both oh these but which is a more important factor what are the other factors in why one plane would gain angles and the other wouldn't (i.e. Energy retention )

     Second I will make a suggestion. Add a plane to the set which will out turn the spit. The spit 9 is an excellent dogfighter (not just 1 v1 co-alt but at a disadvantage or advantage and in multi-plane environments ) It's turning ability combined with excellent climb rate, good top speed, excellent acceleration, energy retention and it's forgiving flight characteristics (don't underestimate the fact it is easy to fly as it helps so much when things get hairy   ) All these make the spit arguably the best dogfighter of the war. Adding a plane which will out turn the spit will give us spit drivers a little more to think about in the arena which can only be a good thing.  

[fats]

Good sustained climb might not make a plane great zoom climber. Zoom climb is something what the ( pre- ) merge climb that will eventually end up in a 'loop' ( reversal ) of some sort is.

FWIW, it's more important to go higher ( reverse down later ) than the enemy in the zoom than to gain angles on him.


//fats

[By-Tor]

 Hmm  i seem to outurn the spit in the vert, flat and oblique.While flying the NIKI that is. My favorite situation in AH is a Spit  driver that chooses to engage me in a sustained turn fight on any plane. As speeds come down, NIKI begins to gain decisive turn radius adv.Is anyone seeing this differently than i?

[Swager]

Bytor,

You might of been trying to gain altitude at the same time, but I was comming around on your N1K1 in my Spit pretty readily.  We were alone and in a low alt situation. Another few seconds, but......

......remember I ran out of fuel and showed you my ability of being a turf master?  
Keeping on the edge of a stall horn in a spit seems to work turning with a N1K1.  Sometimes I do actually win.

I have not done this enough to perform an analysis of the performance issue, I'm just relating an experience.

You are good in your N1K1 though!

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Damn Ghostrider!  This bogey is all over me!!

[jmccaul]

I don't seem to have any problem out turning the N1K2 in the horizontal and haven't yet been in a sustained verticle turn eith one.

[jmccaul]

Fats i was more talking off planes actually looping round each other as tight as possible and i was wondering what was a better advantage climb rate or turn performance rather than an alt-grabbing immelman but i suppose your comment on zoom rather sustained climb is still valid.

Do you know what the comparitve zoom ability of the planes in this paticular set ?  

[val]

"First a question 2 planes start off exactly 180 degrees apart with equal energy states and they are turning in the vertical (i.e. Looping) one plane has better turning performance one has a better climb rate which will gain angles? Obviously it depends on a combination of both oh these but which is a more important factor what are the other factors in why one plane would gain angles and the other wouldn't (i.e. Energy retention )"

Have to make a few asumptions.

1. Both go pure vert at the merge
2. Both begin the pull up at the same time

In that situation the better turning plane could complete his conversion to the vertical, and be in a firing position on the better climber (move in behind/under), thus gaining angles. If they had identical E states then the better turning plane (less wing-loading generally) will retain enough E to stay within the guns envelope. The better climber is dead if the turner can shoot straight.

val

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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death

[-kier-]

jmccaul-

I do not by any means think the spit is an "uber-plane"... competent 51, 109, N1K2  and La5N pilots will give a spit fits when flown properly. I'm flying the La5N almost exclusively, and don't find the spits any more difficult than anything else.

Furthermore, AH cannot deliver a/c that didn't exist; the Spit was a TnB plane with few peers. What plane do you feel we need? No sarcasm intended, an open mind here...

[Extreme]

Firstly, I fly the 109 coz it's a great climber, has great acceleration and top speed.

My experience in AH so far is that most Spits will HO and do flat turns on the merge so I rarely get to test a verticle on verticle fight with a spit.

The rare occasions that I do have to vert fight with a spit, the climb on the 109 usually nullifies the spits' climb after a couple of merges.  It's pretty tough though coz you really need to control the stalls to keep E on the spits and George.

Ex
Great Mysteries: Why do Spits love to HO when they can out turn all other planes in the arena?..<flame retardent suit on>  

[jmccaul]

First Spits are relativly easy to fly and are very compotent in most important areas for dogfighting therefore newer lesser skilled players will gravitate towards it (my self included   - Although i do try and avoid head ons and always go vert after the merge providing i have the e). A good pilot will always beat a bad one. A well flown spit is always dangerous as it will always have an advantage in a vital area and be very competive in most others. It can both energy fight and TnB. With the introduction of a better turning plane (e.g. A6M5 ) you will force more spit flyers to learn energy fighting and that will stand them in good stead if they try the 109, p51 etc.

P.S Extreme it also amazes me how many people flat turn after the merge not just spits though, thats coming from a WB h2h (ladder) background where flat turns after merge are suicide.  
 

[fats]

In case you only want to get as much angles then turn rate is more important. You prolly won't be able to follow the better climbing ( zoom ) plane after the first shot though.

Dunno about the zooms, haven't tested any of the planes at all. It is almost sad how _few_ people use a vertical merge - which is simply the best merge tactic there is. One guy with seemingly several years of on-line flitesim playing said I wasn't 'engaging' when I went vertical and didn't bore in for a direct HO shoot out...


//fats

[jmccaul]

Thanks fats.

-kier- I wasn't really suggesting the spit was vastly superior to the other plane I was really just extoling it's virtues to illustrate the fact a better turning plane would help the arena dynamic hopefully making spit pilots fly a little smarter. I believe all planes in the set are competitive enough to let the better combination of pilot and e state be a deciding factor. Personally i perfer the spit because it suits my style and allows me to switch from e fighting to TnB and in any situation it will have a competitve edge in at least one important area over the aggressor which exploited properly will win you the fight. I am not saying the spit is the definitive "best" fighter, that depends on your style. Why do you choose the La5 ? Just curious as i am not to sure of that plane's particular strengths and weaknesses.

[miko2d]

 In order to take advantage of better climb performance you have to fly straight at an optimal angle. Once you start turning, wether vertically or horisontally, the climb performance becomes irrelevant.

 miko--

[Jekyll]

 

Do you know what the comparitve zoom ability of the planes in this paticular set ?

Go to www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm  and look at the 'Aircraft' pages.

Still under construction but zoom climb, sustained climb, roll rate, acceleration and max speed data is available.

BTW, anyone who can tell me how to scientifically calculate corner and sustained turn rates and G loading???  I'd prefer not to do it simply by flight testing.



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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[val]

Going pure vert. at the merge is a waste of lift vector. Take it 15-20* off the vertical and put the lift vector to work for you getting the nose up and around.
A little oblique goes a long way.

val

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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death