700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh

[garrido]

Hiya dudes:

That one is single opinion, I dont try to offend nobody or nobody offends me.


IMHO I think that the GM in AH doesnt fit to real situations, and i say that btw:

I've calculated (not exactly) that of the numerous times that i'd been killed the distance to takes place over 25% from 700y,  of this percentage almost half over 850y, some it damages the airplane at 1000y seriously, (buff's killed me numerous times to 1.2k), but these kills were due figthers that use Hispanos, Type 99 or a massive 6/8  0.5" machine guns burst.
Just a few times a 190/109 hit me over  300y, have to keep in a straight path to let them hit me, only w few moves then the great dispersion from the MG515, their low ROF (Rating of fire) and vibration it does that the shots from highers distances of 300y are very imprecises, w deflection they must be less than 200y and with very few G's, hits from 450y by these airplanes are unusual, twice in the time that I play AH, and over 500y never.
Usually I feel safe w 109, 190, Yak, La7 from 450y, nevertheless, when that airplane is some with Hispanos or Type 99 I'm not safe until being to 1k of them. I continue asking just like in others post that I have , So exceptional was the Hispanos, the 0.5 " or 99 Type,  and the MG131, MG151 or the MK108 r so bad to hit anything more than 300y away suppose an excessive calculation of the trajectory and  the bullet fall ??.
I know that the MK108 had a range of 300y although its reach was much greater, "la tension sin apenas caida de la bala del MG151 era de 600y" (sorry cant translate this well), I do not know the ranges of Hispanos or the Type 99 that although are 1.2k HTC musn't allow those reaches for the kill, im agree about the hit but not the kill, not enough for serious dmg, and why? is easy, of all the stories that I have readed, only in one of them it is spoken of a kill from 800y with normal sights, when the K14 sight was introduced the precision of the firing increase of an impressive form, but even so the real pilots of the WWII did not even shoot but he finds of 400/450y for several reasons:
a) They exposed the position.
b) The burst had to be so long to make a great damage that the ammunition consumption was great.
c) It was only valid when the enemy airplane remained during a period of sufficient time in the same course and speed so that the fire control "computer" compensated the angle of crossing of the bullets and the airplane, but the speed or course change of anyone of the implied airplanes waste of ammo.
d) The allied airplanes and japonese DIDNT have ammo counter, with which they had to be cautious in end with the duration of his ammo.

I imagine, that you know many cases of kills from 600y,  many from 700y,  some of 800y, but accept with me that the percentage of habitual kills from over 500y was not nothing and nor of distant spot they approached 1% of the total of kills made in the WWII .
I believe that in AH this one type of kills r more than 20% of the total, in fact is habitual to see as somebody shoots to the airplane that you have to 350y and when sights back you see him that it is to 500y of you, with which is shooting to more of 800y and in addition it kill him. Who has not seen this?.
If HTC annuls the ammuo counters of those airplanes that really did not take and in addition leave the icon to distance between 600 and 1.500y surely that percentage of kills to those distance wil be much more similar to the historical reality.
At another moment I will speak of the 0,5 " of the Buff's, of that assumption 26% over the data of the NACA in Spitfire roll rate, of UFO N1K-J2 already is everything said, from Pseudo UFO Spitfire IX, by the way, it is incredible how it accelerates  and it recovers E and that it loses in the turns this airplane, if even accelerates raising a barbarism, of its stalls in almost impossible, of its possibility of having the nose in vertical to less than 100 mph, of... etc, etc.  

If the Spitfire were thus in the reality, so that the P47 and P51 of escort wanted the allies, if with 100 Spits with drop tanks escorting to 1000 B17 had been enough to win the war in 2 weeks? So that 5000 airplanes in Normandía if with 200 Spits had destroyed everything in the North of Europe? Nobody is going to recognize that Spitfire IX this overmodelled? that it is going to happen with Spitfire XIV when in the game? I hope that no of the members of HTC has seen the trilogy of Star War and it puts proton guns in the Spitfires, N1K-j2 and similars.


greetings

SUPONGO

PD: I am not LWhinner, and although it was it, my opinion is supported by which I hope leave its opinion here written, not only those that are in against. kills from 1000y?  I dont beleave.

Hola amigos:

Quiero indicar que es solo una opinion, no pretendo ofender a nadie ni que nadie me ofenda a mi.

Pienso que el modelo de disparo de AH no se ciñe a la realidad en absoluto, y digo esto por lo siguiente:

He calculado (de manera imprecisa) que de las numerosas veces que me derriban la distancia a la que se produce el derribo supera el 25% las 700y, de este porcentaje  casi la mitad a superado las 850y,y alguno me daña gravemente el avion a 1000y, (los buff's me han derribado numerosas veces a 1.2k) pero curiosamente estos derribos se producen por cazas que usan Hispanos, Type 99 o utilizan la saturacion de 6/8 ametralladoras de 0.5". En contadas ocasiones un 190 o 109 me derriban a mas de 300y, he de estar quieto para que acierten, a poco que me mueva la gran dispersion del MG151, su bajo ROF y su gran vibracion hace que los tiros a mayores distancias de 300y sean muy dificiles, en deflexion deben ser a menos de 200y y con muy pocas G's, Impactos a 450y por parte de estos aviones son rarisimo, solo 2 veces en el tiempo que llevo jugando AH, y a mas de 500y ninguna vez. Habitualmente me considero seguro cuando tengo un 109, 190, Yak, La7 detras de mi a una distancia de 450y, sin embargo, cuando ese avion es alguno con Hispanos o type 99 no estoy seguro hasta estar a 1k de ellos. Sigo preguntando lo mismo que en otros post que he puesto, Tan excepcional era el Hispano de 20mm, el 0.5", o el Type 99 japones y tan malos los MG131, MG151 o el MK108 para que acertar con ellos  mas de 300y suponga un excesivo calculo de la trayectoria y caida de la bala?
Se, que historicamente el MK108 tenia un alcance eficaz de 300y aunque su alcance era mucho mayor, la tension sin apenas caida de la bala del MG151 era de 600y aproximadamente, desconozco los alcances eficaces del Hispano o Type 99 que aunque sea superior a 1.2k HTC no deberia permitir esos alcances para el derribo, y por que? pues facil, de todos los relatos que he leido, solo en uno de ellos se habla de un derribo a 800y con miras normales, cuando se introdujo la mira K14 la precision del disparo aumento de una forma impresionante, pero aun asi los pilotos reales de la WWII no disparaban mas halla de las 400/450y por varias razones:
a) Delataban la posicion al enemigo.
b) La rastudmuffina debia ser tan larga para realizar un gran daño que el consumo de municiones era grande.
c)Solo era valido cuando el avion enemigo permanecia durante un periodo de tiempo suficiente en el mismo rumbo y velocidad para que el calculador de tiro compensase el angulo de cruce de las balas y el avion, al mas minimo cambio de rumbo o velocidad de cualquiera de los aviones implicados suponia el malgastar municiones.
d) Los aviones aliados y japonese NO tenian contador de municiones, con lo que debian ser cautelosos en extremo con la duracion de su municion.

Imagino, que ustedes conoceran muchos casos de derribos a mas de 600y, de muchos de 700y, de algunos de 800y, pero reconozcan conmigo que el porcentaje de derribos a distancia superiores a 500y no eran nada habituales y ni de lejos se acercaran al 1% del total de derribos producidos en la WWII. Yo creo que en AH este tipo de derribos es de mas del 20% del total, de hecho es habitual ver como alguien dispara al avion que tienes a 350y y cuando miras atras le ves que esta a 500y de ti, con lo cual esta disparando a mas de 800y y ademas le derriba. Quien no a visto esto?
Si HTC anula los contadores de municion de aquellos aviones que realmente no los llevaban y ademas quita el icono de distancia entre las 600 y 1.500y seguro que ese porcentaje de derribos a esas distancia se situa mucho mas parecido a la realidad historica.
En otro momento hablare de las 0.5" de los Buff's.
De ese supuesto 26% de mas en el roll rate del Spitfire con respecto a los datos del NACA.
Del UFO N1K-J2 ya esta todo dicho.
Del Pseudo UFO Spitfire IX, por cierto, es increible como acelera y recupera la poca E que pierde en los giros este avion, si incluso acelera subiendo una barbaridad, de su entrada en perdida casi imposibles, de su posibilidad de tener el morro en vertical a menos de 100 mph, de ... etc, etc.
Si el Spitfire fue asi en la realidad, para que querian los aliados el P47 y P51 de escolta, si con 100 Spits con depositos lanzables protegiendo a 1000 B17 hubiesen bastado para ganar la guerra en 2 semanas? Para que 5000 aviones en Normandia si con 200 Spits hubiesen destrozado todo en el Norte de Europa? Nadie va a reconocer que el Spitfire IX esta overmodelled? que va a pasar con el Spitfire XIV cuando entre en el juego?
Espero que ninguno de los miembros de HTC haya visto la trilogia de Star War y nos ponga cañones de protones en los Spitfires, N1K-J2 y similares.

Un saludo

SUPONGO

P.D.: No soy un lloron de la LW, y aunque lo fuese, mi opinion esta apoyada por muchos que espero dejen aqui su opinion escrita, no solo los que esten en contra.
Derribos a 1000y? No me lo creo

[Lephturn]

You are missing some information here, which is leading you to an invalid conclusion.

1.  The range you observe from your computer when being fired upon is NOT the range the enemy is hitting you from.  That is calculated on HIS computer, and network lag means that what he sees and what you see are not the same.  Thus, when you see 800 yards on your screen and get killed, the enemy may very well have killed you at 600 yards on his computer, and that is what counts.  The higher the closure and faster the flight speeds, the greater that difference may be.  I've seen the difference between 50 and 500 or more yards depending on the conditions and the network at the time.  In a high-speed head-on pass the difference between what you see and what he sees will often be up around 500 yards.  In a slow tail-chase situation, it would be much lower, down around 50-100 yards I would guess.

2.  We have a more stable environment, more reliable equipment, and most importantly 1,000 times more experience!  In Aces High we have each fired our guns and shot down planes thousands and thousands of times.  Even those who have only been playing these games for a few months have more experience in combat than the highest scoring WWII aces.  We are better shots then they were in WWII, it's a fact.  We are also not being bounced around, experienceing G forces, freezing our nuts off, or in danger of immenent death.

3.  Buff guns have a range concession because of lag.  Because of network latency or "lag", if the buff guns were realistic, you could sit behind the buff at 1k and hose away, hitting him while he could not hit you.  To avoid this problem, buff guns have a longer effective range than fighter guns.

Overall however, I believe gunnery in Aces High is very well modelled.  We acheive different results than they did in WWII due to the reasons I mentioned above, not because the guns are incorrectly modelled.

[AKSWulfe]

And that is why Lepthurn is a trainer.
-SW

[Yeager]

Let me say this to all of you who have never fired anything bigger than a soft drink straw:  If you have six .50 cal machine guns spread out across twenty feet and harmonized to converge at three hundred feet your cone of fire at nine hundred feet should be something on the order a sixty foot impact cone.

You be your own judge as to whether a single engined fighter fits nicely into a sixty foot diameter impact area    

Y

[skernsk]

I also agree with Lephty.

I have been killed at 700 -- 1000 yds but this is NOT the norm.  Also...there was not one but several bursts.

AND....I have been killed by Luftwaffe as well as Allied planes at those ranges.

Supongo...I don't want to start a flame war with you, but R4M has argued the hispanos and 50 cal's to death long ago.  

[garrido]

Hi friends:

you do not read or my notes, can that are the translation, in the WWII did not go off to those distances, in AH if by the reasons that I indicate, of all ways like me who somebody that flies 190 or 109 writes here its experiences, wanted to know that you fly. not of this, but the cone of a convergence to 300ft says that it is of 20ft? it can well be, almost safe, but to 900y surely that he is but ample and with very few together bullets like making damage, something but of 60ft. Another one of my questions is if so bad are 20mm and 30mm German. By the way, they have proven you to shoot to a automovil (almost 2 times the wide one of an airplane) 20 firings with rifle of precision to 1000y and in movement? whichever successes?

 a greeting

Supongo

[AKSWulfe]

The 20mm Mauser is one of the most lethal weapons in AH if you fire and score hits at the range you have your convergence set to.

The following is two films of me flying the 109G2. First one I get 3 or 4 kills and the second film I get 7 kills with a single 20mm cannon. http://gandalf.totalcs.com/ahinfo/mark/g2-1.zip    http://gandalf.totalcs.com/ahinfo/mark/g2-2.zip

Also, you need to remember no cannons are alike.

I wouldn't expect two Japanese cannons of different makes to have the same trajectory, hitting power or explosive power.
-SW

[minus]

AH need diferent tracers for diferent caliber !!!!!!!!!!!

model the diferent trajectory for 50 caliber tracers and  real bulets!!!!

  Lw canons have bad rof but tracers was sane balisticly like  HE rounds

 diferent tracers for 20 and 30 mmm like it was in real life plzzz

reduce 190  MGs  vibration rate the shake the plane more like  8  50 caliber  in jug wings

[Nashwan]

At another moment I will speak of the 0,5 " of the Buff's, of that assumption 26% over the data of the NACA in Spitfire roll rate, of UFO N1K-J2 already is everything said, from Pseudo UFO Spitfire IX, by the way, it is incredible how it accelerates and it recovers E and that it loses in the turns this airplane, if even accelerates raising a barbarism, of its stalls in almost impossible, of its possibility of having the nose in vertical to less than 100 mph, of... etc, etc.

If the Spitfire were thus in the reality, so that the P47 and P51 of escort wanted the allies, if with 100 Spits with drop tanks escorting to 1000 B17 had been enough to win the war in 2 weeks? So that 5000 airplanes in Normandía if with 200 Spits had destroyed everything in the North of Europe? Nobody is going to recognize that Spitfire IX this overmodelled?

Regarding the Spitfire, in AH almost all the planes roll too fast at high speeds, too slowly at low speeds. The Spit is no exception. Judge for yourself wether poor low speed rollrate  is more of a burden for a slow plane like the Spit, which does best by keeping the fight slow, or a much faster plane like the 190D9, which does best by keeping the speed of a fight high.

The Spitfire should retain E well. It has a very low wingloading, and very good power to weight ratio. That means it will bleed less E in a turn, and recover it faster.

Looking at your stats for tour 18 Garrido, you have an average of 1.7 kills per death, against the Spitfire IX you have a 3 to 1 average. Flying in the Spitfire IX you have 4 deaths 0 kills. You do much better than average against the Spit IX, worse than average when flying the Spit IX. What makes you think they are overmodelled?

In real life, large numbers of Spitfires had clipped wings, which give much better rollrates at all speeds than the AH Spit. Be thankfull you don't have to face a more realistic Spit IX in AH. The vast majority of the real ones produced were faster below 20,000ft, had a higher rollrate, much better climb etc. They also fought mainly against the Fw190A series, not the Dora, and the 109G6, not G10/K4.

[john9001]

if you want to die at a closer range you must slow down and let me catch you, and stop wiggleing all over the sky

[Wotan]

Only question I have is relative to convergence. If a planes convergence is set at say 400yrds how big would the cone of fire be at 600 or 800yds. How different would that cone of fire be on wing mounted guns and on cowl gunz.

How much lethality is lost firing outside of your convergence.

I find it hard to believe that lag is the only reason I see this. Especially since there only only a few cannon/mg types that deliver death shots consisyantly outside of any rational cone of fire.

I now defer to those more qualified then myself to answer.  

Thanks in advance

[Buzzbait]

S! Lephturn

As you say, in AH conditions are "ideal".  

You are quite correct.  In AH there are none of the atmospheric factors which will cause bullets in a real enviroment to diverge considerably from their intended courses.  Not to mention the inaccuracies caused by the vibration of the guns firing, etc. etc.

The original poster is quite correct in suggesting the accuracy is too high.

A comment to Yeager in regards to the following:

"Let me say this to all of you who have never fired anything bigger than a soft drink straw: If you have six .50 cal machine guns spread out across twenty feet and harmonized to converge at three hundred feet your cone of fire at nine hundred feet should be something on the order a sixty foot impact cone.
You be your own judge as to whether a single engined fighter fits nicely into a sixty foot diameter impact area"

An aircraft may fit into that diameter, but what is the effect of those scatter rounds hitting?  Much of the destructive power of aircraft weapons is due to them being concentrated at a single point.  Multiple hits on a structural point will cause it to fail.  On the other hand single rounds scattered to impact singly will have very little effect.

[oORKAo]

Hola:

Primera cuestion:
Estoy deacuerdo con todo lo que se dice, no significa que esteis en lo cierto, segun las explicaciones que se dan, entonces el 100% de las veces que ocurren esos derribos es por causa del lag?, quiere decir esto: si un avion X (pongamos un Nik2, pero no es el unico, lo tomo como ejemplo por qu es el mas relevante), y un avion Y (190/109. lo tomo por ejemplo por la misma causa), estan en mi cola,(la mayoria de las veces, por eso hablo con conocimiento de causa   ) a unas 600/700y, segun las explicaciones dadas si tengo lag ellos me verian a 400/500, distancia totalmente aceptable para un derribo, como es que el 190/109 (y otros tipos de aviones) no son capaces de acertarme, y sin embargo el Nik2 me da de lleno?. El lag solo ocurre cuando estas siendo perseguido?.  

Segunda cuestion:
Acepto que los Hispanos y los Type 99 tengan un alcance superior a 1000y, cosa que no puedo asegurar por que no tengo esos datos, pero creeis que un impacto a esa distancia tiene la suficiente energia cinetica para arrancarte la cola de una rastudmuffina? y si es lag por que no veo disparos a mas de 1.3k, segun las teorias expuestas, ellos me verian a 800/900y y si el rango efectivo de los Hispanos/Type99 es 1ky por que no disparan?.

Solo quiero saber, eso es todo

Mis respetos a la comunidad de AH <S>

Orka - JG52 "Los Bravos"

TRANSLATION  

Hiya there:

Firts question:
Im agree w everything that is saying here, thats not means is right, according to the explanations then 100% of the times that happen those kills are because of lag?, thats mean the picture:  if an airplane X (we take a Nik2, but he is not the unique one,  we take for example so that he is  the most), and an airplane Y (190/109,  we take for example by the same cause), they r on my tail (most of the time,  for that reason I speak with knowledge of cause   ), bout 600/700y, according to the given explanations if I have lag they would see me 400/500, totally acceptable distance for a kill, how it is that the 190/109 (and other types of airplanes) are not able to hit me, and nevertheless the Nik2 gives me a full burst?. Lag only happens when you are being chased?.  

Second question:
I accept that Hispanos 6 Type 99 have a 1000y range, thing that I cannot assure so that I do not have those data, but do yo think  that an impact from that range has enough kinetic energy to put out the tail on a burst?, even on a single pin?, and if is lag, why I do not see shots more than 1.3k? according to the exposed theories, they would see me 800/900y and if the effective range of the Hispanos/Type99 is 1000y why they do not shoot?.  or is lag too  

Just want to know, thats all.

my respect to all AH community <S>.

Orka - JG52 " Los Bravos"

[Jekyll]

Originally posted by Wotan:
Only question I have is relative to convergence. If a planes convergence is set at say 400yrds how big would the cone of fire be at 600 or 800yds. How different would that cone of fire be on wing mounted guns and on cowl gunz.

How much lethality is lost firing outside of your convergence.

Thanks in advance

LOOK HERE

[Yeager]

FWIW,  as an example of distance affecting lethality:

I was runn....err.....extending away from Nash in his N1K, I in my P51D, and he hit me
at what read out on my FE between about 800-900 yards with at least 5 seperate pings.

I lost my left flap and right aileron.  Had he hit me between 400-500 yards I would have blown up quite nicely before the last two rounds made it to target.  Impacts from modeled projectiles in AH at longer ranges have markedly decreased lethality.

Y