Author Topic: New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record (Read 956 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2002, 12:58:01 PM »

His superiers seem to have agreed with your sentiments Voss...

Nothing new about this Bishops record has been in doubt for decades.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2002, 12:58:55 PM »

I strongly concur with Voss, it took Cahones to man one of those silk and wood coffins.

If the guy lied, he's a liar. Remember the pilots who have honor and forget the liars.

Jay

Thrawn · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2002, 01:28:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Another note to make. A WW1 Victory is not the same as a WW2 Kill.

I take it Erich Hartmann's 352 victories (not kills) is a walk in the park then?

Jay

Not what I was trying to say at all. A WW2 confirmed kill was harder to be awarded then a unconfirmed WW1 victory.

fdiron · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2002, 01:45:43 PM »

In order for a kill to be confirmed in WW1 either somebody besides the victorious pilot had to see the crash, or a piece from the enemy plane had to be retrieved.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2002, 01:47:46 PM »

understood

Jay

Daff · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2002, 06:47:10 PM »

"A WW2 confirmed kill was harder to be awarded then a unconfirmed WW1 victory."

An yet, despite all the measures used on all sides, overclaiming in WW2 was rampant and equally on all sides.

Daff

Voss · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2002, 08:29:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by fdiron
In order for a kill to be confirmed in WW1 either somebody besides the victorious pilot had to see the crash, or a piece from the enemy plane had to be retrieved.

I don't believe this was uiversally true. I seem to recall having read (from Richthofen's diary) that aircraft that fell behind enemy lines were not awarded.

This led to the infamous account of Richthofen forcing a surrendering aircraft to Richthofen's home field only to shoot it down. From Richthofen's viewpoint, the observer regained strength and went for his gun. Observers from the ground thought it was a cold act, because afterwards the observers' goggles were seen to have been shot up (and the feeling was he had lost his vision. Richthofen, however, was an incredible shot and may well have dispatched him with a shot directly to the head (killed the pilot, too).

I always thought that was an incredible story, as who could say when the hits to the observer had occured?

Still, he alledgedly and very coldly cut a piece off the wreckage, and surrendered it to his superior with the comment, "Confirmed." Who can say if the account occured like this, or not?

Buzzbait · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2002, 09:07:01 PM »

S!

Before you start to believe one of these revisionist historians, you might want to read this article by Bashow:

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/common/FullStory.html&cf=tgam/common/FullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20020418&dateOffset=&hub=comment&title=Comment&cache_key=comment¤t_row=2&start_row=2&num_rows=1

And his book goes into more detail.

Elfenwolf · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2002, 09:32:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Daff
"A WW2 confirmed kill was harder to be awarded then a unconfirmed WW1 victory."

An yet, despite all the measures used on all sides, overclaiming in WW2 was rampant and equally on all sides.

Daff

Daff the Luftwaffe was far stricter on the rules for air combat kills to be awarded than any of the Allied air forces were. The total number of "confirmed" kills awarded to British pilots for all of WW2 was 283, 275 confirmed kills- however, there were only 122,000 planes commissioned by Germany. It has been suggested that the RAF also killed all 76,000 +/- Japanese planes commissioned by the Japanese during WW2, bringing the total of RAF kills up to 198,000, and the RAF has been given credit for destroying all 75,000 or so Italian planes, bringing the total of RAF enemy kills up to the exact number of Axis air strength- 273,000 planes. This descripency of 10,000 claimed kills by the RAF over and above the total combined air power of the Axis has been attributed to mistakes in identification resulting in attacks upon American planes by British Spitfires, mostly against transport planes bringing in presents for poor British children in the latter part of the war.

Nashwan · « **Reply #24 on:** April 18, 2002, 11:30:33 PM »

Quote

The total number of "confirmed" kills awarded to British pilots for all of WW2 was 283, 275 confirmed kills- however, there were only 122,000 planes commissioned by Germany.

In a few months this will have passed into 'waffle folklore as fact, and be quoted as showing how superior Luftwaffe claims procedures were

Dinger · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2002, 12:15:58 AM »

Buzzbait, I was commenting on the article you cite. Neither side presents a very impressive historical argument.
This isn't surprising, considering the field.
Hell, anyone will buy anything that has to do with modern war. It's on TV. Heck, you can even plagiarize and not lose your job.

Hortlund · « **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2002, 12:19:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nashwan

In a few months this will have passed into 'waffle folklore as fact, and be quoted as showing how superior Luftwaffe claims procedures were

Its funny to see how people react when someone presents information or FACTS even, indicating that some aspect of Germany in wwii was better than some allied aspect, be it aircraft performance, pilot quality, claims procedures, battle victories or whathaveyou.

Standard procedure when presented with an uncomfortable fact or theory:
1. Ignore ("Thats not true", "you cant prove it")
2. Evade ("here they go again the luftwobbles")
3. Shift focus ("you are a Nazi/revisionist","well... Germany started the war so shut up")

Pathetic

Masherbrum · « **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2002, 06:00:58 AM »

The Luftwaffe was a honorable part of WWII. They did have the better pilots overall. Not to take away anything but the Allies, but I do believe they were better.

Jay

Staga · « **Reply #28 on:** April 19, 2002, 06:07:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Daff
"A WW2 confirmed kill was harder to be awarded then a unconfirmed WW1 victory."

An yet, despite all the measures used on all sides, overclaiming in WW2 was rampant and equally on all sides.

Daff

Nope. After Russians did open their archives researchers found that Russians did lose more planes against FAF than victories were given to Finnish pilots thought difference was very small.

Daff · « **Reply #29 on:** April 19, 2002, 07:10:55 AM »

A couple of years ago, several people posted the various kill/loss numbers for the various RAF, US and LW units in the ETO and it became painstakingly clear that they all killed eachother several times over, if you went by the claims.
I think the only real research have been with the BOB, which was that the LW overclaimed 3:1 and the RAF 2.5:1.
Recently on AGW, a specific air battle in the MTO was discussed, again with the LW claiming the same figher several times over (No LW was shot down)
I'm surprised to hear that the FAF claims added up; maybe the size of the conflict could have something to with it?.
I don't think that most of the WW2 pilots overclaimed on purpose. In many situations they were most likely convinced that that plane was damaged enough that it wouldnt stay in the air, but don't tell me that you have time, in the middle of a battle, to watch a plane flutter down to the ground and impact, all the way from 30.000 feet.

Daff