Author Topic: New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record  (Read 1080 times)


Offline skernsk

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2002, 05:23:49 PM »
Anything's possible...no guncam footage back then.

As a matter of fact, I remember something in Pierre Closterman's book about a WW2 RAF pilot who was famous during and after the war lieing about his kills.

Offline Sikboy

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2002, 05:24:21 PM »
Fuggin Score potato :eek:
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Voss

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2002, 05:40:52 PM »
Quote
David Bashow, a fighter pilot who teaches history at Royal Military College, wrote about Bishop in his book "Knights of the Air" and said that after three years of research he believes Bishop's record is accurate.


Yeah, and Roy Brown shot down the Red Baron, too.:rolleyes:

Offline Thrawn

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2002, 07:02:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Voss


Yeah, and Roy Brown shot down the Red Baron, too.:rolleyes:


Sorry Voss, do have any evidence what so ever, that Bishop's score is inaccuate?

Offline SirLoin

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2002, 07:11:53 PM »
Who really knows who shot Manfred,but this revisionism on Billy Bishop is really pathetic...The key is his lone wolf raid on a German airfield at dawn where he shot down 3 planes...The author says there were no German records on this and Billy was encouraged/rewarded to report/make up kill reports so the Allies would have a bonifide ace that was up there with the German great ones...I would like to know more on this but I do know one thing....He was very brave to fly and survive that conflict which is more than enough evidence to support his combat record..
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline Voss

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2002, 07:36:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn


Sorry Voss, do have any evidence what so ever, that Bishop's score is inaccuate?


No, Thrawn, and that's precisely the point. Questioning events that occured so long ago? You might as well contact the "In Search of..." team.

Offline Elfenwolf

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2002, 07:42:01 PM »
Yes he is a brave man indeed, but I've heard the RAF actually claimed more kills than the Luftwaffe  had planes, but of course this was before gun cameras were widely used. Once gun cameras came into use the extra weight of the camera appearantly threw off the flight charachteristis of the Spits and the Hurris and made it much harder for the RAF to shoot down the 109s.

Offline Pongo

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2002, 08:19:56 PM »
Im a Canadian..
But from the first time I read Bishops book,"Winged Warfare" I believe it is. I was amazed that they awarded a VC to a guy on his own word...It is increadable and cheapens the VC. He couldnt even name the German Field he hit....lol

Offline straffo

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2002, 06:59:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by skernsk
Anything's possible...no guncam footage back then.

As a matter of fact, I remember something in Pierre Closterman's book about a WW2 RAF pilot who was famous during and after the war lieing about his kills.



so the RAF was lieing too ?

Offline Badger

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2002, 08:54:24 AM »

Offline Dinger

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2002, 10:31:49 AM »
Revisionism makes a splash, and that's why you see so many folks doing this kind of thing.  We like to see our heroes get shot down.

Now, Bashow should have given us a reference to where he got the info on Jasta 20 being there.  And if this isn't the first time a German base was attacked and shot up without official documentation, some additional examples wouldn't hurt.

Bashow's argument "Those about to commit fraud . . ." begs the question.

The next paragraph has some contorted logic, but I think it goes together with the next paragraph to say that the German propaganda machine wouldn't admit to the attack during the war.  Fair enough (assuming verifiable evidence shows that it didn't report similar attacks), but the sword cuts both ways.  He's arguing against a position that claims the Empire propaganda machine needed to create a hero.

"apparently makes reference to a written german denial".  Uh, you shouldn't have to guess on the date.  If Greenhous doesn't provide the documentation to give the exact date, he's not worth a damn.  If Bashow doesn't bother to look it up, ditto.

Concur with the ntoe that landing and shooting up one's own A/C defies logic. There's plenty of easier explanations out there, many of which do not involve shooting up a German airfield.
--
But beyond that, Bashow doesn't provide convincing evidence that Bishop was ever really there either.
In the end, you've got a bunch of negative evidence.  We don't have much to go on.

It's ludicrous, based on what little I've seen here, to say that he didn't fly out there; it's equally silly to insist that he necessarily shot up that field.

And what is this "circumstantial evidence", anyway?
One thing we know for certain, is that this act, for which the only direct documentation available at the time, and now, is Bishop's word, got him the VC.

You can say he deserved the VC and I won't contest you.  Whether he shot up that field is a question that the two historians are using faith to resolve, not history.  I dunno what happened; but it certainly appears by Bashow's own admission that the VC was awarded without ample proof of the act of valour for which it was given.  People wanted to believe.

Offline Thrawn

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2002, 12:26:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
Bashow's argument "Those about to commit fraud . . ." begs the question.


Bishop was about to commit fraud, because he was grounded.  He was >< close to beating the current allied score, held by a Brit.  The Brits didn' want a colonial to be the best Allied ace so they gave him a desk job.  Bishop said F#$ you and took up his plane anyway, got some more victories and surpased the current record.  Brits said okay...fine, you can fly again.

Another note to make.  A WW1 Victory is not the same as a WW2 Kill.

Offline Masherbrum

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2002, 12:52:18 PM »
Another note to make. A WW1 Victory is not the same as a WW2 Kill.

I take it Erich Hartmann's 352 victories (not kills) is a walk in the park then?  

Jay
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http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
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Offline Voss

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New Book Claims WWI pilot lied about his record
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2002, 12:53:04 PM »
If, you've ever been near one of these WWI aircraft, you should realize how brave a man had to be just to fly one. I think any Canadian, or British pilot with more than five flights truly deserves the VC. :D