Author Topic: Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession  (Read 850 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
I'm sorry, but this is horse toejam.

Right now, the biggest disadvantage fighters have against bombers is boredome.  Nobody wants to climb to even 15k to engage them.  Nothing you have proposed will fix that.

Most of the supporters of your ideas like it based on the fact that a lone buff doesn't even remotely need to be considered anymore.. afterall.. what can it do?

No... buff accuracy is irrelevant to what is going on in the arena these days.  People are simply getting pissed because a plane they ignored did some critical damage.

AKDejaVu

TheWobble

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2001, 12:46:00 PM »
 
Quote
I'd rather HTC work on fleshing out the planeset and improving aircraft FMs

It seems this phrase is said whenever a problem comes up..
watch what you wish for, yer gonna end up with a GAME that has a bunch of planes isnt worth a toejam..


there comes a time when you have to say.." you know what, this sucks..lets fix this before we move on"

adding a bunch more planes is not going to erase things like this, it will only distract SOME people from the for a short time.

You can cry all you want about "gameplay concessions" but there is just a major fundamental problem with a SIMULATION that has something as important as bombs that are as totally crappy as it is now.. lets look at them.

A: they dont respond to wind
B: they dont respond to drag of any kind.
C:the craters are all the same size, no matter the bomb size.
D: they do not drift apart, wobble, disperse or whatever you choose to call it when they are dropped.
E: the bombsight is so PERFECT that it makes bombing about as difficult as clicking on a link.


Sorry to say but flying bombers in ah SUCKS aside from taking off and landing and maby shooting at the occasional fighter  there is NO skill required to bomb anything! there is no THRILL, no CHANCE, no VARIABLES, NOTHING!!  Its no wonder so few people fly bombers, they are so damn boring and predictable all the damn fun has been sucked out of them..

Thats why so many people really liked the arado so much, its speed and RATOS managed to temporarley take their minds off how bad the act of bombing actually sucks in this game.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 04-17-2001).]

Offline Glasses

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2001, 01:03:00 PM »
I agree the current ,model of Buffs is out of balance not only can they make pin-point bomb drops, can re-acquire the target in seconds after evading the enemy,but can also cripple your a/c from an astonishing distance(some say it is needed ,I say sure but, to a lesser degree). Most of the times they're practically unopposed by attacking aircraft,once in a blue moon I get to kill a buff without considerable damage to myself or their intended target.

  As of right now something needs to be put into place to make buffing more of a challenge,than the JDAM setup we have now(sure lone buffs are perfect targets, but who in their right mind would risk their virtual life to attack one,most of the time attacking bombers equal certain death).

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Offline MiG Eater

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Preach on brother Pepe, preach on!

The only other thing I would add to this discussion is to consider removing the ability to control an airplane while sitting in a gun position.  That is a concension to gameplay and in no way simulates the capabilities of a WW2 bomber.

Vosper wrote:
 
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I take a B26 with 250 lb bombs and put them exactly where I need them (replace the B26 with F-15E's and it could be any
              currently held Red Flag exercise - not immersion ).

Well almost, we never have to worry about atmospheric conditions that would break a laser lock on an F-15E's LANTIRN/LITENING system (haze, smoke, clouds) or have the need to maneuver the plane to keep the laser spot on target after dropping.  

MiG

Offline Hooligan

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
Unrealistic bomb accuracy for buffs is needed simply because they would be totally useless in the arena without it.  With the current arena design, buffs have to have this or they would be unused.

I personally hate this feature.  

The arena design should be changed to give the buffs suitable targets.  Something very large (so they can hit it) densely packed with targets and ack that is effective up to at least 10K (so that it not a suitable target for attack aircraft).  Perhaps if each country had 10 cities that were densely defended by ack and anti-tank weapons and if these cities never rebuilt except during resets or when the tour rolls over then the strategic bombers would have appropriate strategic targets.

Hooligan

Offline LePaul

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2001, 01:50:00 PM »
While you are at this, please see my post on the Bug Reports area about the craters producing no hazzard or damage.

If you want carpet bombing, then the craters need to produce damage.  You can drop all the eggs you want near a GV and he'll just drive through it.  Same if you egg a runway.  Planes go whizzing right through.

If you want realism, ask for it all  



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Offline Fester'

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2001, 02:08:00 PM »
Im fairly new to this sim, flew it some in the beta, then got busy with real life.  

After reading this thread, Im a bit amazed that anyone would advocate a concession to this degree.  Someone stated there will always be concessions, ie; fuel mixture etc.  But this is significant.

As fighter types we want our planes to be realistically modeled, I wouldnt want to fly a p-47 that performed like a zero for the sake of getting more people to fly it.  Thats rediculous.

Whats being done here is the same thing.  This concession has been made to get fighter types to fly buffs without the hassle of another learning curve.  

Heads up kids, there are buffers out there looking for "Simulation" as well.

If you want inaccuracy, I think AW is still available.  Make this a full faceted SIMULATION.

Offline Skuzzy

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
Most people I have seen ask for changes to the bombers are those who rarely fly them.  Not all, but most.

I fly bombers exclusively.  I have a blast in them.  Why?  cause I have a chance to actually be useful to the country I fly for.

I cannot pilot fighters due to my pastel color blindness which makes spotting a plpane below me impossible.
For this same reason I get shot down very easily by fighter planes when I do fly a bomber.

Again, as someone who only flies bombers,..and the goon when needed, to make the chamges you are suggesting to either the guns or the bombing accuracy would pretty much mean I cannot fly in AH any longer.
I would say that most of the time I fly alone, as it is hard to get support from fighters, and even harder to get support fro fighters that know how to fly cover for a bomber.
I know when I take off, I probably will not make it back and feel very lucky if I can drop a couple of bombs.

I really do not understand the complaints.  I get sweaty palms on every flight.  I get really nervous when I am at the Norden, as I know I am completely open for an attack.  And I usually do get attacked when I am there.  I do not want to have to make multiple passes on any given target at a field as I probably would not live long enough to get it done.  I know this flies in the face of reality, but I think the concession is just about as good as it can get, without removing bombers from the game entirely.
Bombers play a very strategic role in the overall gameplay.  How you woul like not to be able to cap a field because your lone bomber missed its targets because of wind drift?  How would you like it if no one would fly those beasts because they were too frustrated with missing thier targets?
I like immersion, and I like to have fun.  Making all the changes, that are in all the threads, to the bombers would make them a non-factor in this game and ruin the fun I have with them and you already have to really reach to be able to enjoy flying a bomber.
The flights are long and tedious.  Take away any protection and take away the accuracy of the norden,...and you will not see many pilots ever flying a bomber.
We are not all pros at flight,...many of you in this thread are very good sticks, but most of us bomber jocks are not that good.  The concession is needed, particulary for us folks that are not that good and need a little help in the air.

Now, that said,..if a lot of bomber pilots get in on this thread and make the same complaints, then I withdraw my assertion and will capitulate to the masses, but I bet a lot of strictly bomber pilots will not post to this thread, much less agree with it.

No offense to any of you.  Like I said, there are some really good sticks in this thread <S>.

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TheWobble

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »
tisk tisk Skuzzy, no wonder you are always harassing people on the open channel, nothing better to do  

I fly bombers ALMOST 100% of the time, unless we are down to like 3 bases or something, and as i said before they are just TOOO effective..you know EXACTLY where the bombs will hit..you can pick EVERY target and KNOW your going to hit it...it just isnt very fun for very long that way..

some randomness in the bomb patternt would not make bomber ineffective unless they are flying at like 28k plus..and they have no damn business that high anyway IMO,  

simple...add the bomb dispersion and wind drag and the other effects that you fighter folks would DEMAND and simply make the bombs as effective as they should be..as in make it s a 1k egg blowing up 5 feet from a panzer would actually DAMAGE it..

Add the effects of enviroment/wobble/drift.

and increase the blast radius.

then they will be just as effective as they are now, but they will also be REALSITIC..unless you are flying at 35k trying to de-ack a field with a B-17..but IMO you have no business expecting to pull something like that off anyway....

 
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get really nervous when I am at the Norden, as I know I am completely open for an attack
--- The Skuzzmaster

My point exactly...as far as actually dropping bombs goes..there is NO WORRIES..you know exactly where they are going to land even before you drop them..you know exactly which targets are going to hit...there is no element of chance at all..everything the same every time... after a while..thats just not fun anymore..




[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 04-17-2001).]

Offline Wanker

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2001, 03:15:00 PM »
Lazs said  
Quote
i agree that the concessions have no place in a sim. they stand out like a sore thumb and at this point, are destrying gameplay as well as immersion.

Thanks Lazs, so you do support getting rid of the AWACS radar that people use to find the nearest furball, and you do support eliminating icons, which makes it easier to find enemy planes.

That's great, we're starting to find more common ground. You know, I agree with you guys. Let's tune down the buff guns to the same levels as the rest of the planes. And let's increase the realism of bombing, adding wind drift, dispersion, etc...

At the same time, we'll:

1. Eliminate AWACS radar. My poor defenseless buff will at least be harder to find.

2. Eliminate icons. See above.

3. Add realistic splash damage and damage repair. A couple of lucky hits on a runway should pretty much prevent the insty-spawn crowd from rolling until the SeaBees can get their equipment out there to repair the bomb craters.

4. Eliminate the need to use 3,000 bombs of bombs to destroy an aluminum hanger. Buff drivers DO deserve to have realistic targets to bomb.

This is good start, fellas, I think both sides are starting to see the value of making the changes suggested above. It's time, as Lazs says, to start getting rid of the things that are ruining gameplay and immersion.

Sure is going to make finding a furball a squeak, though, ain't it?

Offline Dowding

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2001, 03:49:00 PM »
Wobble - how much work do you reckon it will take to implement accurate bomb modelling with a redesign of the 'chassis' of AH - i.e. the number of targets, target hardness etc -  to make using buffs practical and useful? It's a matter of priorities - one day AH will get a revamp of gameplay, and hopefully bombers will be updated too.

But I would rather see more aircraft with FMs based on the best available data first. How is that moving away from realism?

You can't seem to accept that AH is a game - it's not a true warfare simulator, because such a thing would become tiresome very quickly. With that in mind here are some other articles to add to your 'crusade for realism':

1) You can only fly a buff if you create a mission for a full squadron - one buff attacking a strategic target isn 't 'realistic' is it?

2) All buffs must take off with 100% fuel, because to do otherwise would not be in keeping with real life procedure and hence would be unrealistic.

3) Buff flight times would be increased a couple of hours, to make the experience more 'realistic'.

4) Include random equipment malfunctions, such as engine failure, fuel leaks, radio failure. Might get a little annoying to find after a two hour flight that your bombs won't arm, but hey, it's realistic right?

5) Like banana points out, remove all icons, radar and dot radar.

6) Introduce 'realistic' navigation - you have to manually plot your course and work out your position taking into account windspeed etc. No in flight map.

I fly buffs quite alot too - in fact I play AH in all roles - I find it anything but boring. It's a lot of fun.

But introducing highly accurate bombing models to AH in its current form will render buffs useless.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline LePaul

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2001, 03:57:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by banana:

1. Eliminate AWACS radar. My poor defenseless buff will at least be harder to find.

2. Eliminate icons. See above.

3. Add realistic splash damage and damage repair. A couple of lucky hits on a runway should pretty much prevent the insty-spawn crowd from rolling until the SeaBees can get their equipment out there to repair the bomb craters.

4. Eliminate the need to use 3,000 bombs of bombs to destroy an aluminum hanger. Buff drivers DO deserve to have realistic targets to bomb.

This is good start, fellas, I think both sides are starting to see the value of making the changes suggested above. It's time, as Lazs says, to start getting rid of the things that are ruining gameplay and immersion.

Sure is going to make finding a furball a squeak, though, ain't it? [/B]

I don't know who you are, and what side you fly on, but I really like what you've said here.

Point # 1, I agree wholeheartedly on.  I think the fighter guys would be more inclined to even help bomber guys out, knowing a spotted bomber will draw enemy fighters to them.  Let the chat buffer be what radios are in real life, calling in enemy movements.

Point #2 I disagree with, only because its just too much to take away.  I see your point, but I'd sure hate to shoot down a fellow squaddie....its not like the bad guys fly German and you soley fly Allied  

Point #3...man, I've been saying this for a while and very few have chimed in to agree with me.  Why have bombs if they don't do damage?  Asides the blast radius, of course.  You drive into a 20 foot pot hole, yer gonna get hurt  

Point #4...all I can say is "Have any of you seen a WW2 Vintage hangar?"  Or a modern one at the local Air Nation Guard base?  Most of the WW2 fields didnt HAVE hangars, they were outside, much less runways.  You are exactly right, 3000 pounds of bombs to knock in a tin-can hangar is pretty silly.  But so is 70 perk points for an Arado for that matter  

Great post, and fantastic points.



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Offline Pepe

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2001, 03:03:00 AM »
It's not a matter of reducing accuracy per se. It's revamping the bomb damage model. A 1000 pounder should make a quite big crater, not to mention a 4000er. That's the key point. That's why the Buff has not to be so accurate. Blast radius. You substitute the pinpoint bombsight with a bigger damage radius, and raw tonnage drop. And there is the counter....you damage the target A LOT, so it is useless and defenseless for quite a long time after capture.

And, If you happen to drop a 1000er. just by the dreaded osty, the less it can suffer is a flip.

There are 3 important issues that has been raised so far, those that have been raised again and again, and where is some degree of consensus:

* Bomb damage model, and bomb damage consequences.

Craters, Effective damage radius should be revamped.

* Bomb sight.

In terms of accuracy and lack of lineup time, causes the absolutely unreal behaviour of buffs on the run.


* Buff Guns.

I can understand the frustration of the lone attacker, and the whines they are unreally tough. I feel they are quite allright, since toning them down would render a lone buff defenseless. Wether that should be (as it was in RL) or not, It would make Buff missions almost impossible with the actual MA settings. I can live with guns like they actually are. Even more, I would make them even stronger if the norden sight is improved and, thus, navigation is needed to get to a target properly lined. This is the gameplay concession I would allow.

Skuzzy, I can't say I fly buffs a lot. But I am not to blame for that. The model is the one. It has no interest, for me. The typical buff mission is:

a) Take your buff from hangar, as hvy in bombs as you can, and as lite as 25% fuel.

b) Engines on.

c) Firewall Throttle and firmly secure lever there.

d) Turn your buff in a straight line to your target.

e) Go to buff position....wait until target crosses crosshair...no problem if you have to make a 90deg. turn just on arriving...preferably, bank a lot, so you can hit multiple non-aligned targets in a single laser-accurate pass.

It's as fun as Gooning, except Goon has the thrill of Treetop flight.


So, the problem with buff missions, and the reason I do not fly them are:

a) No engine management to maintain interest while climbing.

b) No planning needed to find a proper route that gives the buff the best possible lining on the target.

c) No need to make a buff mission, when jaboing can achieve exactly same goals and have the plus of dogfiting.

d) I CAN'T destroy an airfield. I can't blow the rnwy away, I can't crater the grass so bad nobody can take off. When I'm 20k+ over it, What It's not a matter of structure hitting, It's a matter of tonnage drop. You are aiming the field, or areas of the field. You are not aiming to hit the precise point where the left leg of the ack tripod is lying.

That's my pain. I used to like WB buffs a lot. It involved a whole lot more strategy than here. Unless we can have something similar here, I won't be flying buffs that much. And I miss them  

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline Montezuma

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Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2001, 03:26:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fester:
Im fairly new to this sim, flew it some in the beta, then got busy with real life.  

Heads up kids, there are buffers out there looking for "Simulation" as well.

If you want inaccuracy, I think AW is still available.  Make this a full faceted SIMULATION.

Bombing is more difficult in AW than AH.  AW bombs have drift at high alts.

They didn't do it for realism, people just got tired of 30k buff dweebs in the melee arenas.