Overall lethality in AH and followup on "fats" post...

[DoctorYO]

Let’s talk lethality,

After reading fats post on the MK 103 30mm cannon, I thought to myself  “hey why is that???”  Well I have concluded that lethality is not accurately modeled in this game..

Bullets/cannon and aircraft don’t mix…   Any bullets hitting a aircraft should be catastrophic…Even light arms such as 7.62 and .303’s can be very dangerous to aircraft. (A-10 pilots and SU-25 pilots don’t give me no sh**)  Now a grazing shot in my opinion may have a 50/50% chance for real damage, but a 1 sec tracking shot should kill any fighter, with just about any gun package. (4 mg types may need a whole1.5-2 sec burst before catastrophic damage.

All a plane is gas and engine….  Now even with self sealing gas tanks they still go boom when they come in contact with hot bullets, the sparks from the carnage of taking on bullets, and especially cannon impacts. (lets not even talk incendiary ammo) As a minimum, extreme reduction of the structural integrity of the aircraft should result from taking fire.

Exp. A spitfire just takes some damage to a wing (any stinking damage from mg or cannon) now the next time that pilot pushes his aircraft over 4-5 g’s he may have a good chance for his plane to structurally fail under that load.

Go grab you ruler and measure 20mm, that’s pretty big.  In my opinion 4 20mm rounds that hit a fighter even if the damage were dispersed would down it.  Lets now talk 4 20mm and the 50 or so 7.62 or 13mm mg bullets that also hit that target.  See I believe that HT does not model ballistics as the bullet or cannon blows through the aircraft…  

Exp.  On a dead six shot at say 200 yds if you hit the target in the tail where does that bullet or cannon round go after its hits the tail??  Most likely the bullets will start jumping around and deflecting a good bit. But the cannon rounds they should blow through the tail and start their way towards the pilot maybe missing him or not.   I would need a super computer to figure the exact ballistics model.  In any case the damage of cannon is devastating because of the penetration factor they hold.  HTC should factor this…  If this type of blow through damage model would be too hard to code in, then a simple solution would be to turn up the lethality of the arena.  

Now I’m not just harping on cannon either, only using 20mm as an example…  .50 cals are extremely deadly too… I have personally witnessed .50 cals punching through concrete and steel…  I don’t know about you but I think concrete and steel are pretty tough, in fact in my opinion a lot tougher than any aircraft skin and guts of the 1940’s… The damage of 6  .50 cals should be devastating..  The armed forces would not have had the 6 .50 cal staple gun set if it were not so effective.  Same with the Luftwaffe, most LW pilots where very pleased with the 1 20mm and 2 machine gun set up…

Now in a nutshell:  in my opinion is that lethality here in HTC land is not what it historically should be.. I believe that it is about .7-8 (70%-80%) of what it should be…

Nevertheless it’s much better than brand w’s, “hit them with 40 cannon shells and watch them fly away..” Here its only 10-15 (on average) cannon shells dispersed but I will say that some planes are enjoying this better than others.

5-10 shells 20mm vs. light plane like 109, Spit or Mustang
10-20 shells 20mm vs. heavies like F4U or FW190 etc..

Now I’m describing shells that hit the aircraft… cannon only because I fly 109f4 and am most experienced with that load out.  Also note that d100 shots I am not factoring. They are very lethal at d100 but any arms at that range should be lethal. So good job there HTC..  I’m talking about the most common shots of  d250 and under.

By increasing lethality it will help the arena over all…   for one HO dweebs would lose a whole lot more, instead of limping home with half a wing..  Bombers would be given a better chance vs the single fighter attack etc…Overall attention to your enemy’s gun solution would be paramount.

Just my 2 cents

Regards,


DoctorYO

PS:  Please don’t give me no net lag bull,  total transit time of  packet to server and then server to other client should be no more than 500-700ms..  Now in human time that ½  - 2/3 of a second…  meaning a 1.5 sec burst on my FE  would at least register a 1sec burst on his FE with delay of .5 seconds… If not HTC may need to rework their network code…  Not a bash,  I think your networking has been fine HTC but I have read in other posts about network lag and I don’t think that would be a valid excuse in this case of lethality.

[TT]

 This may sound odd comming from me. But I think the gunnery is on the money. When it works. I havent had the rubber bullits since I made that country change a few days ago. So im in a a better mood .

  I have no way of knowing what is on your FE. But this might be your problem.

[Pongo]

Comments..
I like the lethality of AH.
You seem to be saying that cannons rely on increased penetration to kill. Armour piercing cannon rounds would be very rare in Air to air load outs. AH models HE cannon rounds that explode on contact or some other fusing mechanism. (spin?). Most of the rear fusalage of a fighter is relativly non critical(many have gas tanks), and the wings are very thin in profile. So real 6 shots have a lethality disadvantage. I find AH realisic in this respect. A plane form shot that hits is way more deadly. More rounds hit, and they hit more important things.
My impression of historical reslults dissagrees with what you are asking for.
All LW planes were cannon armned, getting hit by them didnt seem to be the kiss of death..Many planes returned with damage.
I dont know....Just disagree i guess.  

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Pongo

[MiG Eater]

Historically, I wonder if the FW-190 pilot that attacked Robert Johnson's Thunderbolt and emptied his 20mm and 13mm ammo load into that plane, thought his lethality should be increased?  Though many things need work and will be changed, gunnery lethality doesn't seem to be one of them in AH, so I'm in agreement with TT.  (Other than the rubber bullets that plague us on occasion, but I feel that is a factor of the target not being where we are seeing it).  I've seen the best gunners, in terms of hit percentage on the score boards, consistantly take out enemy airplanes of all types with single bursts.  Even the very best of these high scorers rarely get above a 20% hit to miss ratio.  Overall, we all have to aim a lot better to be more efficient with the weapons we have.  The bullets seem to be doing their job when they hit.

MiG

[HaHa]

IMHO I think lethality should be decreased.. nothing is more annoying then flying somewhere for 15 mins, then dieing when someone single-pings you with a 20mm (can we say f4u-1c??)

[Yeager]

My experience is that if a bogie gets on my six and pulls a good burst, Im done for or very nearly so.  Especially in this late war planeset.  So many cannons makes for short duration.

Yeager

[Yak]

Dr Yo:

If you want to see a complicated penetration model in action, you'll have to look again at Brand W.  Version 2.75, currently in beta testing, offers some kind of advanced penetration and damage model.  You can read about it on ien's web site.  The write up on the history of WB's damage model is particularly interesting (with pics).

As for 4-5 20 mms killing any fighter plane, I have to defer to the above poster: Robert Johnson would beg to differ.  He had what, 20 something 20mm holes in his AC when he rtbed?

Yak

[DoctorYO]

As far as HE rounds, yes I know that aircraft carry these, but thanks for your insight...

Brief exp of explosion physics:

cannon round going at 250m/s hits target and penetrates. delay of explosion is say .1-.5 secs during this time round is still traveling say 40m/s maybe less considering it doesn't hit something else solid. Really too many varibles to compute off the top of my head.

In any case when this round does explode the explosion force would carry forward... note these figures are all approximated based on inertia. You would not have a perfect circle explosion it would be more egg shaped due to inertia when it explodes. thus carrying debris and shrapnel forward.  8D 8D

A question for you who commented,  what plane do you fly...  if its any plane that has 2 or more cannons I'm not disputing the lethality of those types...  I'm mostly conserned with the 1 cannon 2 mg types of gun packages and also the 6 and 4 .50 cal gunset.


What I am trying to get across is that planes and cannon/bullets don't mix...  there is no way a 30mm hitting the fuselage of a fighter aircraft could survive if that round detonates. Also 4 direct hits of a 20mm should down any fighter with the exception of P47 or F4U maybe 190..and if you survived your engine, pilot, and plane in gerneral should be almost FUBAR.

I have been experimenting online by firing my cannon only, into fighters and watching the results..  This game models a 20mm with like some factor that it should not be..  A 20mm is a deadly round.. to any plane... 4 of them should down a fighter at close range.

Also note that mg's all types and forms should be more lethal than they are...  I dumped 300 rds of 7.62 into the tail section of a spitfire with say 60% hit ratio and you know what old spitfire kept flying I got it to smoke though...  This was at range 120yds, so that amazes me... at a minimum he should have lost some or all control surfaces in the tail section.  Ill work on getting some films of this so you can see..


Now im not whining just pointing out that the lethality of this game may need some tweaking especially when it comes to Machine guns and the single 20mm cannon..

Again this is only opinion based on what I have seen in real life and this game...

all of your input was appreciated.

Regards,


DoctorYO

Edited: note the change in range from 1.2 to 120 yds it was a error on my part I dont fire guns at that range..


[This message has been edited by DoctorYO (edited 01-28-2000).]

[JimBear]

How many pilots never made it back after 1 hit from a 20mm or 12.7  to the cockpit or a hit to the rear fuse that took a control cable or blew a hinge away? I dont know about rubber bullets but my Uncle has a Helmet (his) with a real neat shiny groove from a 12.7 bullet (poor VC FE?)that wouldnt stop a .22 dead on. =)
I like the damage model, I only wish that i had some way to associate the sounds i hear on impact with severity of damage. Right now unless I see a wing/airleron/tail gone or smoke it guess and golly if i'm going to break a wing off when i make an evasive.

JimBear
=VMF111= Devil Dogs

[Fallen]

All I have to add to this is my impression of 30-35 second guncam film from an me-110 firing into the back of a b-17, unloading a few hundred rounds into its tail/wings/underside (poor tail gunner eh?) and pulling off....b-17 still flying. No explosion, no wings ripping off. No flat spinning....just kept going minus an engine and a few crew members.

Also like to bring up some pics ive seen of b-17s. Perticurally the one i know every ones seen of the gash throught the 17s mid section from a 109 wing slashing it. Or the pic of the 17 with just metal frames for wings after a 190 exploded onto one, and a few dozen flak shells hit the other one. (both of these pics were of the 17s on the ground, becuase they made it back) I personally believe it should impossible for a single fighter to down a b17. Of all the pictures ive seen of them with 20 or more little swaztikas painted on them for air kills...id think theyd have a better survivability rate?

[bloom25]

I felt like I should add something here.  I have access to 2 computers that both have Aces High on them.  One is on a 100baseT network, and the other on a 56k modem.
(The modem generally connects at around 26400bps.)  I can tell you for a fact that when I fly the 205 (most of the time I do), it almost always takes fewer hits to kill a plane when I'm using the computer on the network.  Just last night, I took down an n1k with, from my view, 4 pings to his left wing.  On my other computer, it usually would take at least 8 - 10 strikes.  (Yes, I do mean strikes in the same area of the wing)
My guess is that the reduced delay time actually allows more hits per unit time.  I'm wondering if anybody else has experienced similar results?

[DoctorYO]

I appreciate your responses regarding the P47 and the b17 but note first off these aircraft are renowned for their durability.

Also note for every freak survival story(the exceptions that could happen on any given day. "sometimes I have a angel watching me syndrome") There were countless stories of those who got cut in half.  Of pilots taking direct fire in the cockpit and engines blowing up in their face after moderate gunfire.

So please take into consideration that when I say 4 20mm rounds to down a fighter, I mean remove that fighter from combat..whether he blows up, loses a wing, engine cuts and stalls into inverted spin, I don't really care...  that fighter will have some serious problems however you look at it. AKA FUBAR

Unlike HTC's AH and other sims which after taking lots of punishment the aircraft is still engaging while smoking etc... This should not happen after taking mutiple hits from 20mm and MG's.. Now if it happened 1 out ten times that would be acceptable but i'm getting a ratio of like 3-4 out of 10 times that I inflict catastrophic damage and the enemy is still engaging. That extra 25 secs that I have to come around and finish this guy should not even be a factor in real life, is a real big factor as far as the gang bang enviroment that exists in AH general arena.

I also said that the current system is about .7-.8 of what in my opinion should be historicaly correct.. So in the flight sim markets thats the highest ratio of any to be modeled...  Warbirds I give a .5, with AW about the same at .5 true lethality. On the airwarrior part I haven't flown in about 2 yrs there so correct me if they remodled their gunnery.

In any event I still think MG's and cannon should easily inflict catastrophic damage from a short bursts to fighter aircraft.

Thanks for your comments


DoctorYO

[Hangtime]

Hmmmmmmmmm... lethality. touchy subject!

Over all; AH seems to a better job than it's current competitors.. but that don't mean it can't be improved.

I've noticed both TT's 'rubber bullit' syndrome and Blooms 'net lag dispersion'.. both of these very aggravating. I suspect them to be one and the same; and both related to packet loss or/and connect speed.

Another manifestation of the network lag issue is the HO.. I lose far more of these than I would if I was up on a cable modem.. seems the other guys hits are logged in before mine are. Now I avoid HO's.   When I feel the hit vs lethality pangs; I relog.

My pet peeve on lethality is the MG bullet stream density.. snap shots in particular. Ever get a guy at or slightly under convergence to fly thru the MG's? Ever see the hit sprites walk from the engine cowling; thru the cockpit right down the fuselage to the tail.. and see the guy just keep flying? A shot like this should shred the guy.. and more often than not the damage is minor; if any. It's like instead of 30 rounds hitting him.. it was three.

Now; it's aknowledged that MG lethality is dialed back to satisfy play balance. Then they drop in the F4U-1C with those magnificent 20mm's. Now; I DONT want the damn thing castrated like the -4 was in brand W.. but I'd sure like to see what unbalanced play is like with REAL MG lethality modeled for just a few nights.   Gimme a chance to do about the only thing a Mustang can do.. kill with a snapshot.

Hang

[Jase]

Deflection/angle/rear gunnery seems to be right on for me.  However, the incredibly lethal HO's detract from the sim IMO.  Why learn to turn a plane when you can grab an f4 and mow down people with a constant string of HO's.  The only sim (and I use that term loosely) to my knowledge that had toned down HO's was AW.  Knowing that one must actually have to "fly" the plane to get on an enemies six, or at least get a deflection shot, makes for a.)Less alt monkies b.)More turn fights c.) Less flying frustration.  Is it more realistic?  No, of course not, but neither is little icons around planes saying who or what is coming at you    

Btw, IMO AH even with the lethal HO's is the best Sim I have ever flown, and has by far the best community developing.

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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic

[juzz]

 

Historically, I wonder if the FW-190 pilot that attacked Robert Johnson's Thunderbolt and emptied his 20mm and 13mm ammo load into that plane, thought his lethality should be increased?

Actually it was only 7.92mm rounds the Fw190A was firing at him.