Poor Christian women <a wee bit critical of the Bible>

[StSanta]

Just read a wee bit in the bible for fun, about the role of the woman.

My goal with this little exercise is to show that our religion (I say our as in Christianity, since that's what the majority of AH players seem to adhere to) isn't 'better' than Islam or any other religion. The following passages aren't that open to interpretation; it's written in quite clear language how women should behave.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Oh well, establishing chain of authority. Says that man is boss over the woman. As it was back in the days the  collection of books were written. Not too surprising; the author could not have anticipated the 60's and 70's (1900, that is).

1 Corinthians 11:4
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head.

That makes sense. I wonder how I can dishonour my toes. If I do so, will my head and my toes link up together and throw a revolution against my soul? Scary thought.

1 Corinthians 11:5
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved.

Now it's getting interesting. This is quite open for exploration - some might interpret it as "women who do not cover their head during worship must be shaved". Bit far fetched; but if there's one place where we got extremists, it's in religions.

1 Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

Yowsa! Forget about extremists: this is *mainstream*. We're talking veiling women here. Of course just during praying or prophezising. I know a lot of women who prophezises nowadays, despite it being out of fashion.

What this passage is saying is that all women in church should cover their head. Last time I was in church was when my brothers children got baptized, against my suggestion that they should not be. No women wore veis or did otherwise cover their heads. A hat wouldn't do; it only covers the top of your head. We're talking veils, just as seen in muslim countries.

1 Co 11:7
But for a man it is not right to have his head covered, since he is the image of God and reflects God's glory; but a woman is the reflection of man's glory.

Of course. Men aren't supposed to carry veils. Why should they, when men are to be privileged, and the burden can be placed on women? I like this. I must say the sexism is introduced quite sneakily.

1 CO 14:34
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

Yeah. Shut them up already. What are they thinking, with thoughts about equality? Makes me think of a Prodigy song.

1 Corinthians 14:35
If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Yes yes, I agree. Being a man gets better and better. Except I must have authority to just tell her to shut up if she asks questions at home. Which I have.

1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,

Yes, they shall not show ankles, or otherwise intice men with their wicked ways: lust is sinful.

1 Timothy 2:11
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

Uh oh. Hope it's to God, the submission bit.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

We must instantly make sure that in no place in the Christian world, a woman has authority over a man. This is scary, I think.

Ep 5:22
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.


Hm, I think I'll chose to read this as a many to many relationship. I.e one wife might have many husbands, and one husband can have many wives. It isn't explicit, so why not. At any rate, more submission stuff.

Alright, honestly how many of you Christians out there practises what the Bible preaches with regards to women? How many of you consider this to be a fair deal for women?

The bible is contains a fair deal of what we today woulf call sexism. Some would argue it's misogynic to a high degree. As such, all true Christians can be viewed as misogynic males, or submissive females being dominated by misogynic males .

And, just from this little example which tells us how women should shut up and wear veis during worship, it'd be easy for say a Muslim to conclude that Christianity is narrowminded, bigoted and highly offensive to human life.

Just as we westerners have a tendency to think about Islam.

Interesting, no?

Note: this post isn't intentionally offensive to Christians. Any sarcasm should be taken lightheartedly, and any opinions are my own. There's a few suggestions that aren't very nice, but just see 'em as jokes. I sure do.

[Soulyss]

Hey Santa, I'm not up to date on any of my Bible verses, these are from the Old Testament rather than the New right?

[Animal]

another good chance to promote The Brick Testament

[Greese]

1.  Context.  For instance, you referenced a section of 1. Corinthians (New Testament, btw).  Paul was writing to the corinthians, a particular church in Corinth regarding their troubles.  Why?  Study that, and this wil make more sense.  It is not a part of the christian religion because most christians understand that to read a part of the bible, and take it out of context is just asking for trouble.

2.  Submission stuff.  If you understood Christ's relationship to the church, this would be much easier to swallow.  It does not call us men to be iron fisted rulers over our wives.

     The bottom line is, juast about with anything, understanding some of the core fundamentals of Christianity would go a long way to understanding some of the not so fundamental issues.  One should't read a couple of verses out of the bible and presume to understand the whole faith.  Within christianity, there is almost a pattern, that in hindsight (for me, as I went through my own journey to understanding the faith more) would solve some stuff.

A.  Understand who Jesus is.  This is the biggest, most basic issue of Christianity.  Who Jesus is, is what separates us from other religions.  Understanding his message, and his purpose, and believing that he is who he said he was is the first step.  I am not saying that you have to be saved, just understand the claims, and the evidence.  

B.  Learn how to study the Bible.  As can be seen by just about everyone, there has been more damage doen to christianity just by things getting taken out of context (who wrote it, when was it written, why was it written, etc...).  It is easy to take a few hours and look up some history, maybe a commentary or two on the passage that is being studied.  ASK for help from someone who seems to really understand their stuff, if something doesn't appear to add up.  Chances are, there is a good reason, usually having to do with context, of why that is.

[Sikboy]

I'd like to point out that while it may be true that all of these religions have texts that are demeaning to women, minorities, non-believers whatever, the real culture clash that we, as Americans feel, is with the enforcement of religious laws that conflict directly with our perception of "Freedom." Right or wrong, I don't know of any Christian governments who force their populations to abide by the direct rules laid out in the bible. If there were a nation out there trying to enforce those rules you have cited in a brutal manner, then you would have a pretty good point.

-Sikboy

[Soulyss]

eh, I still think the writers of the Bible were just sick of being nagged by the girlfriends, wives, etc. so they decided that if they wouldn't listen to them they could get them to listen to "God" and they might get some peace and quiet every once in awhile.

[Greese]

Heh, my friend has a wooden paddle (w/ air holes drilled in it) routed out with "THE WORD".  Says he keeps it around for his wife.  Pretty funny, when you understand that it's not serious.  Now if someone were to walk into his house that was unfamiliar with the truth, would they think he was really beating his wife according to the Bible?  I hope not, but as we all know, people turn just about everything into truth these days without doing any investigation.  (Chain e-mails, urban legends, religion, ).

[StSanta]

Well, my point actually wasn't to bash the bible. Rather, it was an attempt to show you how Muslims or those of other faiths might read it - just as we've read and heard of selected verses from the Q'uran and have concluded that it's a very bad religion indeed.

The fact that most modern Christians today have evolved with times is of little concern if one just reads the good book.

So I am a muslim. Christian fundamentalists have just killed 3000 of my fellow countrymen. Wondering what motivated those people, I look into the bible, eyes coloured with recent events. What do I find?

Examples:

Should we tell lies?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Should we own slaves?

Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . .
they shall be your bondmen forever."

Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."

Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off:for the Lord hath spoken it."

Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
 
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.

Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."

Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."

Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."  


Does God tempt people?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."


For a list of atrocities found in the bible - abhorrant things we'd wish to distance ourselves from, many done in the name of God or because He commanded someone to, check out

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

Many of these are truly horrifying things - what would I conclude from them?

The list goes on - but it's all a matter of context.

Back to the original: you are suggesting that this message were just to the Corinthians, and can be ignored by all others? Seems a bit silly, if you ask me. Recommendations to a people that is no more, that has been transformed and divided up into other nationalities. Again, if I can make this jump, anyone can, especially one interested in seeing christianity from a negative point of view.

If this is the way to go, there is a lot of messages to very specific groups of people, or individuals, and very few to humanity as a whole.

To which I have to say: consistency, consistency. Be consistent in your interpretations: you cannot have A and not have A at the same time.

If you cannot be consistent, it is because the Bible is inconsistent.

Which brings me back to my original point. I actually dug out all this just to illustrate how easily we're misled into thinking ours is the great true religion. It is especially relevant after the War On Terrorism, where the average terrorist is a muslim, or regarded as coming from the middle east

Oh, about submission.

I find the biblical view on women to be abhorrent.
To even suggest that authority is gender-based is simplistic to the extreme and a reflection of times past. If there indeed is a higher force who controls the million of stars, the vastness of space, the molecules and quarks around us, the million species around the galaxies, I doubt very much he'd say, through a (coincidentally) male on the planet Tellus "write down, if you will, that you males shall dominate the females of your species".

Then again, a lot of things in the Bible do not mix very well with my perception of a higher spiritual being. God in the bible seems so...bland, lacking a better word. So human. Pretty un-godlike. But, your mileage may vary; to each his own. I think Asatro has more merit personally, but then again, that's my heritage.

[-dead-]

StSanta - you sound ready to take this bible quiz, from the righteous folks at Landover Baptist Church:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0301/roleofwomen.html

[streakeagle]

And "Christian" people wonder how atheists arrive at the conclusion that the Bible was written by men for men.

I recognize the history and wisdom in the Bible as in any philosphy or legends that have survived the test of time. But at no point does anything in the Bible convince me that it is any more divinely inspired than any other religious writings that Christians believe to be hoaxes and the work of Satan.

I believe you should consider all the possibilities, choose your own path, then live and die with the consequences. Is it really necessary to coerce others onto the path you have chosen? Set an example and others may follow. Shove something down someone elses throat and they are just as likely to choke on it or cough it back up. Most religions and fanatics need to understand this. For those so-called Christians that are always judging people and pushing their faith on others, read the Bible and follow the example of Jesus. He befriended those that others cursed and only spoke the word to those who sought to hear it.

I believe missionaries come closest to following what the Bible says in the New Testament. A lot of them give up most of their worldly lives to serve others and spread the word. If the Christian form of the Bible turns out to be 100% true, I am pretty sure I will be meeting 99.9% of the proud church-going Christians in Hell.

[Greese]

People today are so used to getting exactly what they want.  They get their burgers with no tomato, pizza with goat cheese, and they want a god that fits into exactly how they believe the world ought to be.  I can't believe people are so selfish to put god into a box.  The Bible isn't politically correct.  It's not fashionable.  But to say that you don't like what it says, therefore it must be wrong is a pretty ignorant way to sum it all up.  

     I am not going to go into all the evidence, or why I believe what I do, that's not the purpose here.  I do believe it's wrong to pick out a couple bible verses, take them totally out of context, and judge the Bible based upon whether or not you like the ideas you came up with.

I am pretty sure I will be meeting 99.9% of the proud church-going Christians in Hell.

     That's a strong statement, but I must say that a lot of the visible christians out there are a lot like the Pharisees.  They were so concerned about "looking" and "acting" christian, that they missed the whole point.  It's too bad that a good majority of strong christians who really do get the point aren't very vocal (Humility is a big deal....).  If you want my "professed christian/going to hell ratio", I'd have to put it down to about %45.  

      It's a bit like Aces High in that respect, in that there are a lot of people on this bbs that paint an incorrect view of the sim itself to the outside community.  I wonder how many people get a bad taste of Aces High because of some crap someone spews in here?  If they really cared about finding out the truth about how really great this sim is, they would download it for themselves and try it out.  It saddens me to se someone say that they read the bbs and found us to be nothing but a bunch of whiners, so they tried brand X instead.  

     By the way, living as a true christian (no particular denomination should EVER claim to be the ONLY TRUE CHRISTIANS, btw, and if they do, steer clear!), as one who tries to anyway, it's not always easy to stay "on the path" when it's not politically correct.  My wife understands submission, and I am one of the least dominant type guys I know of.  Heck, my wife does all our books, manages all our money (I could, but she's better), she is the one in school learning right now (I will go back when she's done, we can only afford one at a time), and we live a good example of "the chain of command" as you want to call it, according to the Bible.  My wife knows, that in hardship, or when a very serious decision needs to be made, that I will be able to make one based upon my knowledge and my spiritual life.  She trusts me.  It's not that I am a hair pulling caveman, it's all about trust.   She trusts that I won't turn into a hair pulling caveman, because we have made an effort to understand God's purpose in our relationship.  I think the "christians" that do turn into hair pulling cavemen have some thinking to do about how Christ loved the church.

      One more thing, if you really want to check out what the Bible says about men, women, submission, dating, marriage, sex, all in context and word for word from the Bible,  I would suggest a study from a guy out at Denton Bible Church (Denton TX).  He does a whole, almost word for word exegesis of Song of Solomon (the book of the Bible that young Jewish men were not allowed to look at because it was so racy for their culture).  It might change your attitude of how the Bible says for men to treat women.  He also does the study for believers and non believers alike, because he feels the information contained is very relevant whether you believe or not.  If you just want to understand the big picture, it's a good place to go.  Very entertaining also.

[streakeagle]

There is no better way to learn anything than to see it and study it yourself.

It's a dry and very confusing read from cover to cover, so some of the Bible study guides are good for putting things in a useful order that is much more interesting. Either way, simply read it (preferably one of those that puts 4 or more translations side by side) for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

I think the Catholic church became what it is because when it was founded, only the priests could read. So when they incorporated a lot of procedures and traditions into their faith that has nothing to do with what the Bible says, nobody had the knowledge to question them. As soon as people could read for themselves, the protestants arose. Of course they still kept a lot of what the Catholic church had taught them anyway. IMHO, the Catholic church violates some of the most basic tenets of Christian faith in terms of idols and false teachings. But I guess, like most things, it is all a matter of interpretation and who you want to believe.

If I were to accept the Biblical prophecies concerning a false Church that ensnares most people right up to the end times, I wouldn't hesitate to point my finger at Rome and any protestant churches that are reflection its principles (i.e. Anglican, Greek Orthodox, etc.). How could anything that is a vestige of the Roman Empire and is based on worldly power such as land and monetary riches be Holy?

The older I have gotten and the more I have seen, the less I believe in anything at all.

[Kanth]

"Chicken soup for the soul" sounds like a better book to me.
 
 It's too bad some people can't think for themselves and take responsibility for their own lives a bit more.

The stairway to heaven is filled with many backs.

Kanthy

[Hangtime]

psssssssssssssssssst... santa.. that book say anything about hooters innit?

[Gunthr]

I'm sure there are extreamists in every religeon.

But I think there might be a very good reason that male-dominated cultures and religeons have been pandemic in history. Maybe survival related?

If I'm right, God may well have spoken to this... in Islam, Christianity, Hindu and the rest.

But there also may be a very good reason that the gender equality concept is gaining a foothold now in the world. Again, survival related?

What we need is a patch or an update to these good books, but there hasn't been one for a while as far as I know...