Author Topic: B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)  (Read 351 times)

Offline 28sweep

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« on: April 23, 2002, 11:10:38 AM »
So I am sticking w/this plane and trying to learn as much about it as possible.  I am trying to fly a discplined approached and sticking to B&Z style as much as possible..my questions are the following:

1) Say the highest con around is at like 12k then as a general rule I am going to 14k is that about right.

2) When I dive the F6f and the con sees me he almost always makes a hard turn giving me only a snapshot...that's ok my gunnary is better and I land some shots but those 50cal's never take him down on the first pass so I have to zoom climb again.  Then he runs or gets jumped by another friendly and I have lost him.   If I flew a Me109-g10 w/those gondolas then I would win that snap shot every time but I want to fly the F6f. I know  good B&Z plane should have a big punch but the Hellcat just dives some damn good it only seems natural to fly it that way.

3) When I got a con setting up on my six I roll and turn into him setting up for another snap shot or head-on.  I find I can never shake someone once he on my six and close.  My question here is what is like the optimal way to quickly switch direction's in the hellcat.  Sometimes I pull the nose up to bleed of some speed w/the idea that my turn will be tighter and I will have gained some potentail energy that I can cash in on the snap shot.  Or I roll and do like a split-s but pull up my nose through the manuver to get a quick snap shot.  IS THERE A BETTER WAY WITH THE HELLCAT (to quickly switch directions and get a shot off)????????

4) Now for the last one:  I've burned all of my E turning and got some cons very close that I cannot run from or turn into for a snap.  What can the Hellcat do then?  I guess overshoot but it never works for me.  I try it and drop speed very quickly only to find myself a much slower and easier target!!  

Anyway I love the F6F and all of the history behind the plane and would like to be competative against La-7's and Nik etc.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline gofaster

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2002, 12:24:53 PM »
There's a pretty lengthy run-down on fighting in the F6F at http://www.netaces.org.  Maybe that would help?

Offline dtango

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2002, 06:02:16 PM »
28Sweep:

Quote
1) Say the highest con around is at like 12k then as a general rule I am going to 14k is that about right.


I know this will sound utterly non-helpful but it really all depends on energy states relative to yourself and the bogeys.  If you're 2k above the highest con and the highest con happens to booking at 340+ MPH and you are just at 180 MPH, that bogey will have an opportunity to zoom up and shoot you off your perch.  2k of vertical seperation wouldn't be enough.  If the situation is that your at 300 MPH and the bogey is at 230 MPH then 2k of separation is probably fine.

I guess one of my "B&Z rules of thumb" if you can call it that is to develop your SA and build a mental picture of the relative energy states of the bogeys in and out of your field of view and use this as a basis for deciding how hi you should be.  

I think factoring the "out of view" situation is as important as what is in view.  e.g - Is the fight low and near an enemy base with little other enemy activty nearby?  If so there probably aren't any hi energy bogeys nearby so I can be lower and not as fast.  Is the fight a medium to low alt near your base with a lot of enemy activity in adjacent sectors?  If so there are probably more enemy aircraft that will be on the way with hi energy states so I need to stay higher and much faster.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline 214thCavalier

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2002, 08:17:21 AM »
You will never be competitive against N1k's so forget it. Well not strictly true but its such a slim 1 shot deal its not really worth trying but if your masochistic dive like hell and drag N1k with you of course if hes closer than 900 your already dead from those 1 hit and kill cannons it carries.
If you can get fast enough you try to use your roll rate to get one chance starting with a basic scissor move either way then wait until he follows, hard roll scissor other way as soon as you drop below his nose pull up and roll over the top of him hoping for a snap shot if your lucky you will be above him before he finishes rolling in the scissor trying to reacquire you, fire and or run but its a slim chance at best.
Fastest way to change directions is roll with rudder and pull onto new vector, rinse repeat as needed. Also rolls faster if you unload the wings.
Pulling the nose up with a con on your 6 is generally a bad idea as it gives a lovely plan view to aim at.
Depending how close the con is say over 800 even if closing  try a yoyo,  if you time it right  they will be coming up after you when they do start a tighter downward leg many times they will stop climbing and try a flat turn into you as your coming down yes they will have a snap shot chance but most miss it.
Point of this is by doing the yoyo and going higher than they did you have really narrowed your turn circle compared to the enemy when viewed from above.
Imagine  looking down on a circle now squash opposite sides together you now have an ellipse, in other words you  reversed cutting the circle.
Very few people will resist trying the snap shot and trying to turn with you now they are at the beginnings of a disadvantage, they now find themselves having to make a wider turn than you and needing to burn more E doing it.
The F6F may not have the best climb but it does zoom very well even when slow, the secret is being gentle only pulling enough to get the job done hence keeping enough E for evading incoming bullets if needed :)
From here on use the vertical fight as much as possible and remember the F6F can regain enough E to go vertical even from a near stall situation very fast as it accelerates going downhill very quickly.
If your in a really slow knife fight then the F6F has a huge rudder that can help flip you into a roll  and out of the sights of the enemy but in these situations only experience with timing your move can help you get it right. And remember if a cons attacking from your 3 - 9 line a move in the vertical even if its only a porpoise type move can spoil there aim and will not lose much E and is also very effective against aa when on the deck.
You can be competitive against La7's and usually kill them even if they bounce you as long as you can evade there first passes once you get them in close they are dead.
I posted my views on killing La7's before and once was enough if you search my posts you should find it somewhere.
As for a big punch the Hellcat does if you hit the enemy at convergence those 6 .50's will shred them very quickly but you need to hold on target about 1 second.
If your planning on some infighting set your convergence around the 250 to 300 mark, kills will be very quick but forget anything that tries to run away :)_

Offline Lephturn

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2002, 08:51:59 AM »
Well, to be honest, the Hellcat just isn't much of a BnZ fighter.  It simply doesn't have the guns for it.  It is however a decent turner and a respectable E fighter.

Basically... I try not to go into engagements with a big alt advantage.  I want to enter them slightly below the other guy but with a speed advantage... just not too much of one.  The Hellcat can turn some if you have the E to burn, and it's a decent turner if you keep it fast.

Use good E fighting techniques, but stay close.  Don't try and pure BnZ like you would in a Pony because the Kitty doesn't have what it takes to survive purely in BnZ.  It excells in the close E fight, so keep it there.

Now, what to do when you get in trouble?  The Kitty can dive.  It accellerates very well in a dive, and can handle very high speeds.  You can escape from faster planes, or catch them if they try to dive away TEMPORARILY.  In the long run, they'll get you, but often by diving away at the right moment you can exit a fight.  If the other guy runs you down, be sure to turn back into him and start a knife fight again before he gets too close.

Offline 28sweep

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2002, 11:05:53 AM »
I thought E fighting and B&Z where the same thing?
What is the difference?

Offline Lephturn

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B&Z'n-F6f (Mathman/Cavalier or anybody)
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2002, 02:26:57 PM »
BnZ and E fighting are very different. :)

Basically, all air combat is E fighting.  We use the term E fighting here to mean fighting in a manner designed to build or maintain an energy advantage that can be used to kill the other guy, as opposed to simply trying to use maximum turn performance to do it.

BnZ basically means, come in from a superior altitude so you are not cacheable, take a shot, and zoom away.  This doesn't require any E management to speak of, other than not going too fast or not pulling to hard in to the zoom.  What I would call E knife fighting means coming in with an E advantage (Usually in the form of speed) and flying in a way to maintain that E advantage, using it to beat the other plane even though it may out-perform you in almost every area.  For example, where a TnB pilot may pull the stick into his guts and ride the stall horn and rely on his sustained turn performance to win the battle, the E knife fighter will use the vertical, use lag pursuit, and such to preserve his E and position without going for max turn performance.  The sharp E fighter then chooses a point at which he can use that built up E advantage all at once for a shot opportunity.  That's what I call E fighting, and it's what I find most rewarding about this game.  It's how I can "out turn" a Spit IX in my Jug given the right situation.  It's all about the E... but to E fight you don't need to BnZ.  The best E fighter pilots are those that can win with a plane that doesn't turn as good as their opponents' and never extend beyond D 1.5 or so.

The E is all around us.  It's the Force baby, learn to use it!