Author Topic: Time for another ME flame war!  (Read 1319 times)

Offline Curval

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Re: Re: Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2002, 06:18:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by babek-


LOL.

I dont know what propaganda news you are watching, but the main  german TV senders - like ARD, ZDF, NTV, RTL or SAT1 - are all reporting about a brutal israeli massacre. None of these senders agreed in their reports with the official israeli version.
In these reports Jenin is considered as a war-crime like Sebrenica.



Of course they are...makes for a much better story.

I will wait until all the dust settles before believing ANY news source.
:rolleyes:
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Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2002, 06:34:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Just like in 1947, when Israel wasn't satisfied with the land given to it under the partition plan, and so attacked Arabs towns and villages to force the inhabitants out. Towns like Haifa, that was supposed to be Arab, and that the Israelis shelled for days with mortars to drive out the Arabs.


You really need to read a history book man, beacuse this toejam is embarrassing.

Who started that first war now again?

Offline Gh0stFT

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Re: Re: Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2002, 06:34:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by babek-


I dont know what propaganda news you are watching, but the main  german TV senders - like ARD, ZDF, NTV, RTL or SAT1 - are all reporting about a brutal israeli massacre. None of these senders agreed in their reports with the official israeli version.
In these reports Jenin is considered as a war-crime like Sebrenica.

Since the massacre of Sabra and Shatila Sharon is considered in Europe as a war-criminal. He cant travel in many european contries, because there is arrest order against this war-criminal.

Now - lets wait what details the investigation teams will find out, if Israel agrees to let them in.


hey babek i watch ARD, ZDF and all the other german TV stations too,
sorry but i never heard anything about "war-crime like Srebrenica",
thats all speculations until the inverstigation team starts theyr job.
I dont like this way of propaganda from you, nobody from the press
where in Jenin during the fighting, so how comes the press talk
about "brutal israeli massacre" ? have you seen the massacre on TV ?

Gh0stFT
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Re: Re: Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2002, 06:40:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT


hey babek i watch ARD, ZDF and all the other german TV stations too,
sorry but i never heard anything about "war-crime like Srebrenica",
thats all speculations until the inverstigation team starts theyr job.
I dont like this way of propaganda from you, nobody from the press
where in Jenin during the fighting, so how comes the press talk
about "brutal israeli massacre" ? have you seen the massacre on TV ?

Gh0stFT


Now dont confuse him with pesky details like "facts", "truth" or "evidence"...it ruins his theory.

Offline Curval

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Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2002, 06:43:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


You really need to read a history book man, beacuse this toejam is embarrassing.

Who started that first war now again?


No kidding!

I would say to him that the Palestinians are refugees because they moved out of the area to allow Syria, Jordan and Egypt to come in and kill all the Jews.  When the invading forces were thrown back the Palestinians suddenly found themselves with no home and surrounded by a very (understandably) unfriendly bunch of people who were supposed to be dead when they returned.

If I was an Israeli I would have problems with simply handing back this land to people who were anxious to see you slaughtered a few weeks previously.
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Offline batdog

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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2002, 07:33:23 AM »
I am an Isreal supporter. I feel they are our best Allie in the Mid-East. I still see scenes of Arabs/Pala's burning our flag and cheering from the gulf war to 9-11. Those that support things like that can burn for all I care.


BUT... Isreal needs to be held accountable. They are not above "hate" crimes.... the passions over there are so intense I can see how something "bad" could happen. Hopefuly they'll show some restaint, or did. Hopefuly the stories of looting and such I'm hearing here are just that..stories.

No matter what happens I'll NEVER support the PLO or its cronies... they are our mortal foe. I'll never trust an Arab state...as I dont see how ONE has ever earned our trust.

I only hope we can still trust Isreal...

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2002, 07:36:42 AM »
Quote
You really need to read a history book man, beacuse this toejam is embarrassing.

Who started that first war now again?

You mean when the Arab armies united to destroy the state of Israel just as it was born?

If you read the history, you will see the Israeli forces were on the offensive months before the Arabs.

Quote
I would say to him that the Palestinians are refugees because they moved out of the area to allow Syria, Jordan and Egypt to come in and kill all the Jews. When the invading forces were thrown back the Palestinians suddenly found themselves with no home and surrounded by a very (understandably) unfriendly bunch of people who were supposed to be dead when they returned.

Ah, the old myth that the Arabs were told to leave to make way for the Arab armies to come and conquer Israel.

Seems a strange way to make war, doesn't it?

Encourage the civilian population to leave, the people who can aid your armies with food, shelter, local guides, intel on enemy troop movements etc.

It's basically been admitted as a myth by the Israeli government. Read the memoirs of the leaders of the time, and it's obvious just how false it is.

Look at Deir Yassin, where the Stern gang and Haganah and Irgun combined to massacre a hundred or so Arab civilians. Haganah, the main Jewish military force, spread the story that they had counted the bodies of 254 Arab civilians, according to Mordechai Raanan to cause panic amongst the Arabs.

The Arabs accused Haganah of making the figures up to spread terror.

Quote

"...at the company and platoon levels, officers and men cannot but have been struck by the thought that the steady Arab exodus was 'good for the Jews' and must be encouraged to assure the security of 'Jewish' Haifa. A trace of such thinking in Carmeli Brigade headquarters can be discerned in the diari entries of Yosef Weitz* for 22-24 April, which the JNF executive spent in Haifa; "I think this state of mind should be exploited and press the other inhabitants not to surrender. We must extablish our State". On 24 April, Weitz went to see Carmel's adjutant, who informed Weitz that the nearby Arab villages were being evacuated and that Acre had been 'shaken'. "I was happy to hear from him that this line was being adopted by the Haganah command, to frighten the Arabs so long as flight-inducing fear was upon them"...Weitz, it appears found a responsive echo in Carmeli Brigade headquarters. It made simple military as well as political sense..."

"...the truth was different: The commander of the Carmeli Brigade, Moshe Carmel feared that many of the Arabs would remain in the city. Hence, he ordered that three inch mortars be used to shell the Arab crowds on the market square. The crowd broke into the port, pushing aside the policemen who guarded the gate, stormed the boats and fled the city. The whole day mortars continued to shell the city even though the Arabs did not fight..."

"...It was understood by all concerned that, militarily, in the struggle to survive, the less Arabs remaining behind and along the front lines, the better, and, politically, the less Arabs remaining in the Jewish State, the better. At each level of command and execution, Haganah officers in those April-May days when the fate of the State hung in balance, simply "understood" what the military and political exigencies of survival required...."

"...In accordance with Plan D, the Haganah and dissident Zionist groups launched a series of military offensives, the fully anticipated result of which was the Arabs' flight from Palestine. The attacks themselves were the most important single factor in the exodus of April-June from both the cities and from the villages...This demonstrated clearly by the fact that each exodus occurred during and in the immediate wake of each military assault. No town was abandoned by the bulk of its population before Jewish attack..."

"...The widely publicized slaughter at Deir Yassin, the massacres in Khirbet Nasr ad Din near Tiberias and Ein az Zeitun near Safad, the indiscriminate and protracted mortarings at Haifa and Acre, the use of loudspeakers broadcasting 'black propaganda' messages in Arabic, crop burnings and so on, spurred into exile those Palestinians not sufficiently impressed by the lightning assaults of the Zionist forces. Especially outside the major urban centers, it was standard Haganah and IDF policy to round up and expel the remaining villagers (usually old people, widows, cripples) from sites already evacuated by most of their inhabitants...."

"...Throughout March and April 1948, the broadcasts of AHC and neighboring Arab countries were consistently urging the Palestinians to remain in place..."

"...as early as December 1947 these broadcasts were instructing Palestinians to 'stay put and fight'. Furthermore, by and large the local leaderships and militia commanders whether in obedience to the AHC or indpendently, discouraged flight, even to the extent of issuing formal threats and imposing penalties, but it all proved to no avail..."

All from Benny Morris' Birth of a Nation, via the onwar.com forum.

Benny Morris is an Israeli historian, who used Israeli sources in writing his books.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2002, 07:46:21 AM »
I see, Bennie Morris is the guy who has it all right, and everyone else is wrong.

mmmkay...
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Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2002, 07:56:39 AM »
Quote
Hopefuly the stories of looting and such I'm hearing here are just that..stories.

The story I posted about the looting, vandalism and destruction is by an Israeli reporter writing in an Israeli newspaper. It isn't propoganda.

As to the first post on this thread, don't speak too soon. The UN aren't being allowed in, neither are a Greek rescue team:
Quote

Israel is preventing a Greek team made up of 34 earthquake rescue experts from coming to Israel to help salvage bodies from beneath the ruins in the Jenin refugee camp, Palestinian and Greek sources have confirmed to Ha'aretz.

Queried on the issue, a spokesperson for the Foreign Ministry said, "Israel does not prevent humanitarian aid. We are aware of the problem and it is being handled by the relevant authorities."

A plane loaded with equipment has been delayed for two days at the Athens airport since the Foreign Ministry informed the Greek embassy that "there is no need for such a team."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=155517&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
Talk of a massacre is undoubtedly overblown, as such things usually are, but Israel is going to very long lengths to make sure no one can dig in those ruins. Jenin is still a closed military zone, with the only way in involving circiting Israeli checkpoints.

4 bodies were recovered in Jenin yesterday, 3 teenagers and a 10 year old girl.

Quote
I see, Bennie Morris is the guy who has it all right, and everyone else is wrong.

Who is "everyone else"?

Benny Morris' works are widely respected in Israel.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2002, 07:58:45 AM by Nashwan »

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2002, 08:24:49 AM »
Quote
see, Bennie Morris is the guy who has it all right, and everyone else is wrong.

If you don't like Benny Morris' work, you could look for Erskine Childers, an Irish historian who went through the BBC monitoring service and it's American equivalent, looking for the broadcasts urging the Palestinians to leave. What he found were broadcasts urging them to stay, and calling the ones who left cowards and traitors.

Or you could try Mordechai Bar-On, a soldier in the IDF for 22 years.

Better yet, go to primary sources, like the records of some of Ben Gurions meetings:

"Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn't offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee."

Israel declassified many of the government papers in the 80s, and it has revealed a lot about what really went on.

Quote
The first documented Israeli version of the Palestinian exodus appeared as early as October 1948 in a report by a senior JNF official Yosef Weitz to the Israeli Government. "The migration of the Arabs of the Land of Israel was not caused by persecution, violence, expulsion …[but was] … deliberately organised by the Arab leaders in order to arouse Arab feelings of revenge, to artificially create an Arab refugee problem …". He also writes that the Arabs expected to return to their homes in a few weeks, not only to their homes but also to the houses and possessions of the Jews.

In 1952 Joseph Schectman, a prominent American Jewish writer and confidant of Jabotinsky, drafted a pamphlet for distribution by the Israel Information Office in New York. This pamphlet added the new claim that the Palestinian's exodus was promoted by "the Arab Higher Committee (Command), municipal authorities, local commanders and at a later stage, by Arab Governments themselves."

These two documents became the basis for all future Israeli and Jewish comment and analysis. Until the late 1980's the veracity of their claims was accepted without question. The "Arab orders" thesis moved from hearsay to historical truth through the quoting and requoting of these original documents by pro Israeli authors like Kimche, Eban, Syrkin, Sachar, Gilbert and even the anti Israeli writer, Moshe Menuhin. The novel Exodus, by Leon Uris and the film that followed established these views as historical fact. They all quote that "documented proof exists that the Arabs were promised they could return to their homes on the heels of Arab victories to loot the destroyed State of Israel." (Uris:1958).

But the truth is otherwise.

Ben-Gurion never urged Arabs to stay in Israel. In fact he instructed Rabin to expel over 50,000 Arab citizens from Lydda (Lod) and Ramle on July 12, 1948. Rabin issued the following order, "the inhabitants of Lydda must be expelled quickly without attention to age." The Mapam Mayor of Haifa, Abba Hushy did plead with the Arab minority in Haifa to stay.

On the other hand Weitz, Head of Settlement and Land Acquisition of the JNF wrote in his diary on April 22, 1948 that "the state of mind of the fleeing Arabs should be exploited" and that the "inhabitants of Haifa who had not left should be pressed to leave." After hearing from the local Haganah commander that two Arab villages outside of Haifa had been evacuated Weitz wrote on April 24 that "I was happy to hear that this line was being adopted by the command - to frighten the Arabs so long as flight-inducing fear was upon them."

In the months prior to Independence, Yigal Yadin, Head of the Haganah prepared an operation plan called Tochnit Dalet (Plan D). He explained that its objective "is to gain control of the territory of the Hebrew State and to defend its borders and to gain control of the areas of Jewish population and settlement outside the areas allocated to the Jewish State." He elaborated that "if Arab towns or villages occupied strategic points … the Haganah must undertake … the expulsion of the population outside the borders of the State."

Prof. Sir Martin Gilbert, the famed historian of the Holocaust and Israel, details in his most recent book "Israel A History" (1998) incident after incident of Palmach, Haganah and IDF actions that aimed "to clear out the Arab population." He quotes Yigal Allon, official historian of the Palmach, "We regard it as imperative to cleanse the interior of Galilee and create Jewish continuity in the whole of Upper Galilee."

The war hero of Israel, Yigal Allon, ordered the harassment of (Arab villages and towns) in order to speed up their evacuation. Only the leaders of Mapam, the socialist Zionist party, protested against this policy of "filling the roads with women, children and old men.".

Since the late 1980's, Israeli historians have gained access to declassified documents from the Israeli State Archives. Historians like Flapan, Segev, Kapeliouk and Benny Morris, published books that dared to challenge the amnesia, mythology and fabrication of traditional Israeli-Zionist history. These Israelis are proud Zionists and cannot be accused of running an anti-Israel agenda.

Morris found that direct Jewish expulsions in many parts of Israel was significant in the Palestinian flight. Morris however says, there is no evidence of a Cabinet or General Army Staff level decision to expel Arabs from Jewish areas. These historians found there was also no evidence of any blanket Arab Higher Command order to flee.

On October 21, 1948 the Government of Israel took a decision that was to have the most lasting and divisive effect on the rights and status of the remaining Palestinians who lived within the State's borders. The creation of military government security zones in the remaining areas of Arab habitation which prohibited residents' movement without permission and authorised the military to remove and transfer residents from their homes.

The reassessment of Israel's early history has radically transformed contemporary discussions about the Palestinian refugee origin and resulted in far reaching changes to the Israeli education curriculum. Its influence on the wider Jewish diaspora, Australia included, has not surprisingly, been more limited. But it is past time that we accept the evidence, based as it is on solid historical research. To continue to claim otherwise is to fabricate history.

http://www.ajds.org.au/1948.htm
« Last Edit: April 24, 2002, 08:32:13 AM by Nashwan »

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2002, 08:30:38 AM »
I'd think the cameras would be all over a "massacre"

Instead you see the same news clip over and over showing 3 to 4 body bags of adult size being laid out

The phrase:
 "Israel killing Palestine civilians in Jenin" confuses me.
 As the Pals do not have a military, what else is Israel gonna kill, who else are the suicide bombers?
I don't think CNN or MSNBC would state it as it really is:
 "Israel is accused of killing murderous Palestine nutbugs in Jenin"  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2002, 09:02:57 AM by Eagler »
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Offline LePaul

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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2002, 08:35:22 AM »
Ya know...here in the good ole U.S of A., we are hunting down and shutting down terrorists.  

Israel does the same, and the PLO cries foul foul foul.  

What I find hilarious (yes, I laugh at the PLO...gleefully, might I add)...is that they think the rest of the world should be *outraged* for the Israeli's saying enough is enough and stomping the living toejam out of them.  The PLO seems to think hiding in the birthplace of Jesus Christ will win them something.  They couldn't be more wrong.

All through this conflict, they have been hiding behind women, children and non-militants.  To hide behind the birthplace of Christianity just shows how cowardly they are.

If the Arabs wanna truly "support" the PLO, come and get em.  If they are your "brothers and sisters" in arms, then come pick up the trash and dont come back.

Israel is doing the same things we are doing in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.  I find it "entertaining" that people want to condemn Israel for defending itself.  The first, immediate result of their actions....the terrorism has all but stopped.  Gee...

So I'm sorry, whenever I see a thread that starts with the Palestinians as the victim, I tune out.  And I'm not Pro-Israel or Anti-PLO, etc....I'm just a pundit watching from the sidelines.  Everytime Israel and PLO have talked of a cease fire or negotiations, its the PLO who violate it.  Then condemn Israel for reaction....its that same old Tom and Jerry cartoon over and over again.

Offline babek-

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Re: Re: Re: Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2002, 09:03:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT


hey babek i watch ARD, ZDF and all the other german TV stations too,
sorry but i never heard anything about "war-crime like Srebrenica",
thats all speculations until the inverstigation team starts theyr job.
I dont like this way of propaganda from you, nobody from the press
where in Jenin during the fighting, so how comes the press talk
about "brutal israeli massacre" ? have you seen the massacre on TV ?

Gh0stFT



Maybe you should put a little bit more attention to our news.

Here only three examples of news-reports of yesterday and today:

Yesterday - ZDF - Heute Journal - 21:45 - a report how israeli soldiers  killed civilians in Jenin and how Israeli troops plundered safes and damaged car-park of the Goethe-institute (in one of the palestinian cities).

Yesterday - RTL - 0:00 - RTL-Nachtjournal - a report how iosraeli troops destroyed intentionally civilian buildings in Jenin in order to destroy palestine infrastructure.

Today - ARD - 13:00 - Tagesschau - a report how israelis killed a crippled man in a wheelchair by destroying the house and himself in Jenin with a bulldozer although the palestine neighbors informed them that the crippled man was in the house.

Offline SageFIN

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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2002, 09:08:01 AM »
Nashwan, I suggest that you stop pounding your head against this brick wall here. Doing so would save you major headache.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2002, 09:18:27 AM »
Ok, lets compare two quotes shall we.


First this:

Quote
Originally posted by babek-
I dont know what propaganda news you are watching, but the main german TV senders - like ARD, ZDF, NTV, RTL or SAT1 - are all reporting about a brutal israeli massacre. None of these senders agreed in their reports with the official israeli version.
In these reports Jenin is considered as a war-crime like Sebrenica.


Wow..sounds pretty bad doesnt it? Brutal massacres fully compared to Sebrenica (where 6 000 people were murdered)

Lets look at Babeks version of things:

Quote

Maybe you should put a little bit more attention to our news.

Here only three examples of news-reports of yesterday and today:

Yesterday - ZDF - Heute Journal - 21:45 - a report how israeli soldiers  killed civilians in Jenin and how Israeli troops plundered safes and damaged car-park of the Goethe-institute (in one of the palestinian cities).

Yesterday - RTL - 0:00 - RTL-Nachtjournal - a report how iosraeli troops destroyed intentionally civilian buildings in Jenin in order to destroy palestine infrastructure.

Today - ARD - 13:00 - Tagesschau - a report how israelis killed a crippled man in a wheelchair by destroying the house and himself in Jenin with a bulldozer although the palestine neighbors informed them that the crippled man was in the house.


And once again, Babek proves that he doesnt really know what he's talking about.

But then again, what he lacks in knowledge and sources, he makes up for in hate, lies and distorted exaggerated half-truths.