Author Topic: Turret and hand held machine guns  (Read 916 times)

Offline fdiron

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« on: April 23, 2002, 09:41:55 PM »
Obviously Aces High is quite unrealistic in its modeling of turret and hand held machine guns.  In real life bombers consistently were mauled by fighters when not escorted.  However, I have never read why bombers were not able to defend themselves adequately.  Can anyone give me some insite as to why bomber gunners scored very few kills?

Offline Pongo

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2002, 10:07:56 PM »
I wasnt there..But I have shot at remote control drones with a ground mount 50cal.
It is very hard to do. Even a little plane at 60 miles an hour is hard to hit.
Hitting a plane from a buffeting bomber, peeping through a little window in the freezing cold when you are moving 230 mph and he is moving 400 must have been brutal to acomplish.

Offline capt. apathy

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2002, 10:42:04 PM »
even harder than hitting a moving vehicle. try hitting anything when shooting from a moving vehicle

Offline fdiron

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2002, 06:10:30 AM »
Was inadequate training a problem for gunners?  I think I remember someone in Aces High saying that their father-in-law was a pilot of an armored P63 that was used for target practice.  He went on to say that the gunner instructors were very accurate gunners.

Offline Tony Williams

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2002, 08:10:30 AM »
Certainly training was important. It is also worth noting that guns in a good, powered turret were far more accurate than hand-held ones (the waist guns on US bombers were really waste guns :)).

Even accepting their claims (and the claims for shootdowns from US bombers were way, way over reality) guns mounted on fighters were about ten times as effective in terms of number of bullets fired for each kill.

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Offline HFMudd

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2002, 10:06:50 AM »
I can think of 8 reasons why my buff gunning is better that it would be in real life:

1) My barrel never heats up.
2) The mounting of my gun never loosens.
3) My guns never jam.
4) The buff flys perfectly smooth, even with a aileron missing.
5) I'm not 18 and scared witless.
6) I'm not in a bulky parka with thick gloves.
7) I have not been up since 2am and in the air since 4.
8) I'm not 18 and scared witless.

Now I know that 5 and 8 are the same, but I figured that one was worth mentioning twice.

Offline H. Godwineson

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2002, 10:47:35 AM »
No unescorted bomber force survived a mission against determined fighter opposition without taking heavy losses.  Period.  The AAF took prohibitive losses in its' daylight raids against the Third Reich until the advent of long range fighter escorts.  By 1943 there was talk of suspending the raids because of the heavy losses being inflicted by the Luftwaffe.

Claims for fighters shot down were wildly exaggerated by the bomber crews.  The actual losses by the Germans were far less than the AAF had hoped for.  Until the arrival of the Mustang and long-range drop tanks for all fighters the prospects for the bomber offensive were bleak indeed.

In Aces High, by comparison, it almost impossible to attack a group of bombers without incurring heavy losses among the attacking fighter force.  Had real life been like this, the Luftwaffe's fighter force would have been bled white in 1942.

Some fixes, obviously, are necessary to restore a little realism.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Tac

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2002, 11:25:21 AM »
plus you gotta see just how easily you kill with 2 .50's in buffs when compared with 2 .50's in fighters at convergence. Gimme a break!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2002, 12:59:24 PM »
Yea it's pretty messed up one way or another no matter what the powers to be may say.....  I just hope that the buff guns are readdressed in the new version with 4 buff formations. Otherwise it will really be messed up.

Offline NOD2000

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2002, 01:03:53 PM »
well...........alot of the ratteling of a .50 even hand gun is impossibel to handle expecailly as a machine gun........i can remeber gunners of larger size and streangh gettin 7 kill some times because they could move the .50 around easily while it was firein..............and to tell u the truth alot of guns like 20mm should basically just rattle a fighter back and forth.....partially y the tracers u see in old plane films are all over the place..............

Offline Montezuma

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2002, 01:12:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson

In Aces High, by comparison, it almost impossible to attack a group of bombers without incurring heavy losses among the attacking fighter force.  


Scenarios are where AH comes closest to actual WW2 conditions.  In scenarios, unescorted bombers are toast if they are attacked by enemy fighters.

Offline Sikboy

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2002, 01:40:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson


In Aces High, by comparison, it almost impossible to attack a group of bombers without incurring heavy losses among the attacking fighter force.


More often than not, the "attacking fighter force" consists of one guy attacking from the low 6 (The famous please kill me, I don't want to fly anymore attack). Get two guys who are working together, and they can take down a buff with little difficulty. Get 4 of them sprinting through a formation and... well, that's why we have Scenarios (although, as Invasion Sicily proved, the M.202 isn't the best interceptor out there lol) Do they tweak bomber lethality in Scenarios?

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Offline Toad

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For Those Who Continue The "Buff Gun" dicussion
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2002, 03:13:29 PM »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Majors

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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2002, 03:41:48 PM »
Hi Mates

Although I was a pilot in the service I have not fired .50
cal's from one plane at another.  Have fired them on the ground at targets and believe me, they kick bellybutton at 1000 yards.

If they ever really model a slipstream from the bombers, the fighters will find out quickly just how hard it would be to shoot one down from the direct six position.  Would be like riding a bucking bronco.  Operating within the bomber box would be very rough flying indeed.

Believe the LW liked head on's at very high speed.  Could get some cannon hits in and get by the gunners.  If you note a lot of LW gun camera film from the bombers six, the gunners are dead by the time the LW gets in close for the kill.  Also believe ack killed a lot of bombers.

There was a game out a couple of years ago that had slipstream, was it Janes WWII fighters?  Something like that.

Would make bomber warfare much more interesting.




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Offline HoHun

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Turret and hand held machine guns
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2002, 04:17:34 PM »
Hi everyone,

for a good perspective on the difficulties of firing from gunners' positions, have a look at "Operation Pinball" by Ivan Hickman.

How ineffective bomber guns really were is evident from the results of the 1943 Schweinfurth raids.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)