Author Topic: Zoom climb and snapshot  (Read 483 times)

Offline Fowler

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« on: April 27, 2002, 07:57:29 AM »
Whats a zoom climb and whats a snapshot?
just curious im not up with the lingo

Offline Andy Bush

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Zoom Climbs and Snapshots
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2002, 08:48:53 AM »
Fowler

Good questions!

Zoom climb. We might say that there are three ways an aircraft gains altitude. One might be while performing a climbing maneuver  such as a Loop or Immelmann...in these maneuvers, the pilot is pulling G. This positive G results in a flight path that "curves" up.

A second type of climb is the "normal" climb where the pilot raises the nose, adds climb power, and then adjusts his pitch attitude to maintain a predetermined climb speed. This climb speed will get the pilot the most altitude gained over an extended period of time. In AH, this speed varies between 160-200mph or so, depending on aircraft type. The normal climb is done at a constant speed. As the aircraft gains altitude, its climb performance decreases...the pilot must lower his pitch attitude to prevent his speed from falling off. This results in a gently curving flight path that "curves" down as the climb progresses. Normal climbs are done at one G (actually, in a wings level climb, the G load is mathematically slightly greater than one...but who cares!!)

The third type can be called the "zoom climb". Here, the pilot is attempting to exchange speed for altitude at a greater than normal rate. The objective is to reach a higher altitude at the expense of speed. At the end of the "zoom", the pilot will typically be at a relatively low speed, perhaps as low as zero mph.

The "zoom climb" is best done at low G...zero G if able...this will minimize drag and extend the climb to the maximum. This will also result in a relatively straight flight path. The pitch attitude will be determined by where the pilot wants his aircraft to end up. This implies that the "zoom climb" is performed for a specific reason and against a specific target. If all the pilot wanted was to gain altitude without respect to a target, then the "normal" climb would probably be more appropriate.

Zoom climbs are often seen in "boom and zoom" tactics and as a defensive response in some situations. In any case, the pilot must be assured that his eventual position at the top of the zoom will keep him out of danger, since his end game speed will be too low to allow much in the way of aggressive maneuvering.

Snapshots. There are two kinds of gun attacks. One type is known as a "tracking shot". In this attack, the pilot is turning in the plane of motion of the target and is holding his gunsight aiming reference on a constant aiming point. The objective is to have the rounds fired hitting the target as it moves through the sky. If the aiming point is correct, the projectile stream will follow and hit the target as it moves.

Sometimes, an attacking pilot is unable or unwilling to maneuver in the target's plane of motion...but he still wants to make a firing pass.

To accomplish this, all the pilot has to do is compute an intersection between the target's future position and the rounds fired. The pilot will then fire a burst at that point with the expectation that the target will fly through the projectile stream. This is truly a "hit or miss" situation, and that is why snapshots are known as low probabiliity of kill (Pk) attacks.

In the snapshot, the pilot is not attempting to fly his gunsight aiming reference in the target's plane of motion. Instead, he is trying to fly that aiming reference to a point in front of the target (and in the target's plane of motion).

Snapshots usually occur in high angle off situations. These may be planned or accidental. The primary reason for a planned snapshot is that the attacker wants to reposition or separate and not tie himself to the target. The primary reason for an accidental (unplanned) is when a firing opportunity presents itself, often during a muti-bogey, turning "knife fight".

You can find an academic discussion of the gun attack in SimHQ's Air Combat Corner.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/air_combat.shtml
« Last Edit: April 27, 2002, 08:59:04 AM by Andy Bush »

Offline Fowler

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Wow great
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2002, 08:57:19 AM »
Great tips man i really apprciate it...

so an example of a zoom climb would be, if i was low and see a higher bomber . I would use all my avaliable speed and pull up straight verticle gaining alot of altitude and maybe even stalling out and falling off... but in exange for 5k in alltitude in a matter of a few seconds?


I think i understand snapshot now.. So when reffering to a snapshot, say im head to head with an enemy he decideds to break left early, I throw up some lead in his flight path hoping to get some hits while i am keep my same path so i retain energy?

thanks again

Offline Andy Bush

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2002, 09:17:27 AM »
>>example of a zoom climb would be, if i was low and see a higher bomber . I would use all my avaliable speed and pull up ..<<

This is an option...but probably not a good one in most instances.

In A2A combat, there are few absolutes, so there are not many tidy answers that fit any situation.

In this case where you want to climb up to the target's altitude in order to attack, your better choice may be to climb at a "normal" rate and accept the additional time that this takes. This will preserve your closure on the target and will allow you to retain some maneuvering options in the event you have to change your plan.

A zoom climb to a firing position is an option. Just realize that when you get to the "top", you better have your aim spot on because you will have no extra speed to reposition...and you will be a wallowing duck that the bomber gunners will have a field day with!! :)

Your snapshot example is a good one. Remember, the only criteria that defines a snapshot is the failure of the attacker to hold his aiming reference in the target's plane of motion. How the attacker approaches the target is irrelevant. A "tracking" pass can be flown from any approach angle, just as a snapshot may be attempted from any approach angle. It's not the approach angle that is defining the situation...it's the holding of the gunsight firing reference in the target's plane of motion that is the deciding factor.

Offline Fowler

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Andy
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2002, 09:40:58 AM »
Thanks you cleared stuff up, the zoom climb on the bomber isnt something i would do because of what ive learned its just a really bad example...

Thanks

Offline Fowler

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all this lingo is confusing
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2002, 09:53:27 AM »
Thanks,
All these fighter manuvers are very difficult to follow when you cant see them demonstrated.  I understand the Basics like the roll, )i dont understand the use of a roll but i know how to do one). I understand the split S and Innhel. and the loop and break turn..(Not really sure how long to break on the break turn tho)
Ive got the barrel roll down great tho...

but hi and low yo yo's rolling scissors, scissors and a few others are totally foreign to me, I have no idea how to do these are what they are even good for but i hear them refferenced all the time...

Is there any place that has these listed with diagrams?

thanks
fowler

Offline Andy Bush

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BFM Help
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2002, 10:05:51 AM »
>>Is there any place that has these listed with diagrams?<<

There are numerous web sites with articles that help explain air combat maneuvers.

One place is SimHQ's Air Combat Corner. Look for the "It's All A Matter Of Perspective" series for info on flying BFM in a computer simulation. That site has additional articles covering a wide range of air combat subjects.

One note of caution. Not all the material to be found on the internet is correct. In addition, much of it deals with real world maneuvers that may or may not be possible to fly in a simulation. The SimHQ articles are written for simulations. Aces High also has an excellent group of trainers that can provide outstanding assistance.

Offline Kweassa

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2002, 07:50:32 AM »
Oh man, Fowler, if you were only Korean :)

 I own a nice website about AH, but since I don't know anything about web designing and programming, it's on a local server service settings.  

 I have worked on this site for lot of months in order to try and put up air combat tactics manual with pics, until AH 1.09 came out with it's film functions and totally screwed my effort ;)

 Here's a few links to what you might wanna know. You probably won't understand a word on these pages, but I think at least you can look at the pics and get some general idea on the acm moves you are curious about.

 
High Yo-yos

Spiral Dive

Rolling Scissors

 ..

 Enjoy :) though it probably ain't much of a help.

Offline Elysian

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2002, 07:58:26 AM »
I've heard a lot of guys in AH say "Plane x has a great zoom climb".  Always kind of wondered what that meant, p47s and F4us being the planes I most often hear this comment about.

Warning, uneducated guess below:

Since both these planes have crappy climb rates in general, do they mean that these planes are just plain heavy and will carry a lot of inertia upwards (assuming they are already at a decent level speed or maybe are pulling up after a high speed dive)?

I know spits and nikis are famous for this as well, but (another guess) I think that's more due to their ability to hang on their props, i.e. low stall speeds and good low speed handling allow them to continue straight up where most planes would be already lurching over.

Offline bozon

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2002, 09:56:06 AM »
Quote
Since both these planes have crappy climb rates in general, do they mean that these planes are just plain heavy and will carry a lot of inertia upwards (assuming they are already at a decent level speed or maybe are pulling up after a high speed dive)?

pretty much true.
I was wondering about this a few months ago, so I did some tests as well as some theoretical thinking about this.
you can find my tests results and also a theoretical mathematical model (symlified, since i don't know too much about aerodynamics), that explains the effect of mass, engine, drag, initial speed and initial altitude, on the zoom climb, at my site that appears in the signature.
or directly:
http://t2.technion.ac.il/~snordon/bozon

mind you that the tests were made with version 1.07 so some FM had been changed since (the F4u, n1k, f6f for sure).

I was planning to revise those results and improving the testing method, but still havn't found the time to do this.

Bozon

edited:
seems like my university servers are having some connection problems, so you may find it difficult to get into the site...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2002, 10:01:53 AM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Geeesy

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2002, 04:10:21 PM »
If you ask me the zoom climb ability of a plane is defined by how fast a plane lose speeds while maintaining a certain climb rate above it normal climb rate. For example if you constantly pull the P38 at 300mph slightly up (1.2 - 1.5G;) ) you can maintain something about 4k/min ROC for quite a long time since the speed needle will drop down very slowly. At something about 160-150mph (I think, I am not a friend of watching the instruments:) ) the climbrate will fall down as well. Another kind of zoom climb imho would also be climbing with a fast IAS. For example the 262 climbs at 300mph with a ROC of about 3k/min, which no other plane can do at this airspeed. So you run away (zoom) from an enemy while climbing him out ( = zoom climb). That you can do with either a better climbing plane vs a not that good climbing but actually faster plane (109 vs P51) or with a faster plane against a slower but better climbing one (P51 vs A6M). Hmm well the plane examples may be not that good but I hope you have an idea what I mean.;)

Fowler to give you a better example where you can take use of a zoomclimb: Say you fly some fast bird as the 190 D9 and below you (since as good Dora pilot you always are higher than everybody else :D ) flys a Spitfire. So you attack, of course from 6 o'clock. But you miss in the first pass, overshoot and end up with very much speed with a slower enemy direct in your neck. As most Spit pilots in this situation he follows you and now comes the zoom climb. Go up in a very slight angle which you keep increasing very slowly, so you dont lose speed too fast (elsewhise the spit could catch up). You keep your eyes on the following spit and hold him at a distance about something over 800 yards. If distance increase you pull up a little bit more, so the spit stays at the distance. If the distance decrease just ease your pull and keep your angle of attack (how much you are pointing your nose upwards) for some time the same until the distance is increasing again. If you do that right you will end up with something about 150mph and be shortly before stalling pointing your nose in the sky, but the spit d800+ behind you will stall too. Now you can turn your plane arround and fly downwards. The spinning Spit should be a very easy target to blast to hell...

For the reversal on the top you should ask you through for the maneuvers Hammerhead and Wingover... ;)

Yes there is much to learn...:D Might be the best if you read the basics of the maneuvers somewhere and let them show you as observer by someone who can fly them (at best a trainer) in the right situation against a "drone"-player in the TA. Thats how I learned them the best way.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2002, 04:27:28 PM by Geeesy »

Offline bozon

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2002, 05:26:50 PM »
servers are back up.

the zoom (prop-hanging) experiment:
zoom zoom

my simplified theory for zoom:
math/physics bla bla bla

I consider "zoom" climb as a nearly balistic climb - using inertia and pure engine pull with very little lift from the wings.
at very steep climbs (near vertical) the wings produce almost no lift - you keep the plane in a low angle-of-attack, producing as little induced drag as possible so you can convert kinetic energy and engine work to potential energy.
of course, this is efficient only in high speeds. once the speed gets low, if you want to continue the climb you should change to "normal" climb once the speed dropped to the optimal climb speed.

Bozon
« Last Edit: April 28, 2002, 05:46:50 PM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Modas

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Re: Zoom Climbs and Snapshots
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2002, 10:12:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andy Bush
Fowler


The "zoom climb" is best done at low G...zero G if able...this will minimize drag and extend the climb to the maximum
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/air_combat.shtml



How do you do a zero G climb?  No stick pressure results in 1G (gravity).  A zero G climb would imply that you are applying foward pressure to the stick.  Is this correct?

Thanks

Offline Andy Bush

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Zero G Climbs
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2002, 10:23:14 AM »
By reducing G below +1, we reduce the drag that comes from the formation of lift...known as induced drag.

The stick position with no pilot pressure on it is going to depend on how the plane is trimmed. In our sims, this is not usually a big deal...so in a sim, a little forward pressure on the stick is needed to get to zero G.

The problem is that we seldom have a G meter to look at...or the time to look at it if we had one...or the seat of the pants feel that a real life pilot would use as his primary cue for getting to zero G. The best way to get to "zero G" conditions in a sim is to look forward and position the stick so that there is no nose movement in any direction. That may or may not be zero G, but it will be "close enough".

Offline bozon

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Zoom climb and snapshot
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2002, 10:26:33 AM »
Quote
How do you do a zero G climb? No stick pressure results in 1G (gravity). A zero G climb would imply that you are applying foward pressure to the stick. Is this correct?

the position of the stick depends on your trim condition.
if you want to know exacly, till you get the feel of it, you can watch the acceleration gauge to see how many G you are pulling. this is a good way to get the feel of a zero-G dive as well.

if you are doing a very steep climb and you keep your nose pointed up at a constant angle (close to 90) above the horizon, you are probably already doing close to zero G.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs