Author Topic: Best Fighters  (Read 1548 times)

Offline Sombra

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Best Fighters
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2002, 02:16:31 PM »
Please could anybody comment this article ?

When you were talking about the range of the lavochkins i was thinking that the fuel tankage was decreased from La-5FN to La-7. The limitation of the russians was their engines, i think. But it's also worth mentioning that russian engines were more adapted to the harsh conditions of the eastern front.

Greetings

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2002, 03:43:10 PM »
My top list in no special order.

Focke Wulf FW 190, Messerschmitt Me 262, Vought F4U Corsair, North American P51D Mustang, Spitfire 9 and there after.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Professor Fate

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« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2002, 04:03:45 PM »
The best fighter plane like any other weapon, is the one you can use most effectively to kill your enemy with.

Offline Dr Zhivago

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Willi Reschke and his Ta 152 H-1
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2002, 04:17:27 PM »
On April 14, 1945, two Hawker Tempests of 486 (New Zealand) Squadron took off from the Volkel airfield in Holland in order to attack the railway yards at Ludwigslust. As they initiated their low-level attack, three Ta 152s of Stab/JG 301 were scrambled against them from Neustadt-Glewe, five miles away. Within minutes, the German aircraft hurriedly fell upon the New Zealanders. Oberfeldwebel Sattler, flying in No. 3 position in the German formation, lost control over his new plane and crashed vertically into the ground. In the following dogfight at almost tree-top level, Sattler's comrade Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke displayed the superior maneuverability of the Ta 152 by out-turning and shooting down the Tempest flown by Warrant Officer Mitchell, who had no chance to survive.

Reschke was an excellent pilot at the controls of the Ta 152. Ten days later he flew "Green 9", shown here, and destroyed two Yak-9s in the air over Berlin. Reschke had flown in JG 300, I./JG 302. and III./JG 301 before he was transferred to Stab/JG 301. He survived the war with a total score of 26 victories, eighteen of them 4-engine bombers.

Offline udet

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« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2002, 04:41:25 PM »
i still think the Tempest is better than the Ta152 at low level :p

Offline niklas

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« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2002, 06:10:18 PM »
The Mig-15 pilot who flew to Kimpo said the Sabre is superior. In the Interview you can read:
He said that the Red pilot were very much afraid of Sabres because of the better maneuverability and better gunsight of the American planes and said that that he thought the American planes were superior too.

or

The first qualification of a pilot, he said is to be a member of the Communist party. The second was a strong physique and the third a good memory, he added.

or

He saw ne planes being shipped into North Korea about 40 days ago and the planes piloted by the Russians were superior to those flown by Chinese and North Korean pilots. the Russian piloted planes, for one thing, had radar gunsight which the other did not, he said.

btw- he did not know about the 100.000$ reward when he flew.

J.H.R Merifield said about the MiG that it is faster, accelerate better, climbs better and has a higher ceiling. The high communist losses can be explained by bad flying discipline. They donīt keep formation well and are badly guided from ground. Though superior in armment they donīt suceed in shooting down fighters because of bad gunnery training or insufficient gunsight equipment. Furthermore the abillity to fly tight turns is limited. The Mig15 tends to spin.

Another flight test from Okinawa found out that the Sabre is superior on grounds of:
Necessary automatic devices are missing for the Mig, so the pilot has a lot to do in flight and canīconcentrate himself fully to the fight
Topspeed of the Mig is lower than for the Sabre
No stall horn installed
insufficient climate control
The cockpit is too small

Someone said that the climate control was defect, and a small cockpit is no handicap for korean pilots, i think

Another test found out that at combat speed heavy yaw movements occur, thus it is no good gun platform. The weapons are not equipped with a heating device what is necessary in high altitudes.
Best Mach-number was 0.92, yaw movements begin at 0.86
Aillerons were the only controls that were boosted (Hydraulic system)

niklas

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2002, 12:31:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

Sounds like a propaganda fish story to me... Like the Soviet claims of F-86 kills, exceeding total production by 200%, and deployed aircraft totals by 400%. Here's a shocker... The Soviets frequently lied, or at the minimum, exaggerated to extremes. It's the nature of the communist system, the truth is what they say it is....

Some historians have concluded that Soviet (and Japanese) kill claims should be divided by 3 to get close to the actual numbers.


Again the money for the fish. We discussed it here a year ago.

First: Soviet victories in Korea include all types of ACs, not only Sabres.

Second: about the nature of communist system - better watch what your own "ministry of truth" toejams into your brain. 64th IAK losses are all documented, and never ever were touched by propaganda. They were de-classified after "destroyka" in early-90s.

OTOH - UN "heroes" didn't have a single "confirmed" kill in Korea.

Third: the most interesting part. Japanese aces had the victory counts up to 350-300. Later American "historians" divided that numbers by 3 or 4, probably because noone could kill so much "defenders of democracy". OTOH - Japanese aces who claimed up to 75 kills in 2 weeks over Khalkhin-Gol were considered OK - they fought against Russian "untermenschen". So did LW "knights" - so we have that ridiculous numbers like Hartmann's 352 kills.

Now - pathetic mode off ;)

Eugeniy Pepelyaev (i read his book last week) said that Sabre was in many ways superior to MiG. Advanages: better electronics and radio, better cockpit, G-suits, high-speed handling, critical speed (M0.92 for MiG vs Sabre's M0.95). MiG had slightly better climb and slightly worse turn, better cieling.

Offline K West

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Best Fighters
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2002, 07:29:36 PM »
Is this something you folks were looking for?


"-Mission 894, largest ever to Berlin - 1264 heavies and 600 escorting P-51s - was launched against targets in and near the German capital to deliver 3724 tons of bombs. Twelve Mustang fighter groups escorted the bombers while two others went to nearby areas.
As previously agreed, the Russians were notified of the mission and its targets. The encompassed area between the Oder and Pasewalk-Berlin had been defined earlier to ensure that Russian and American forces would not meet accidentally.
Flying from East Wretham, 46 P-5IDs from the 359th Fighter Group divided into two formations - Group A led by Captain Ralph L. Cox, 369th Fighter Squadron, and Group B led by Captain Ray S. Wetmore, leading ace of the 359th with 21.5 victories, with 28 aircraft from the 368th and 370th Fighter Squadrons. The time is now 1135 flying at 2,000 ft when Captain Cox leads them in an attack on aircraft seen strafing Zackerick airfield north of Kustrin.  There are now fifteen aircraft in the area, Germans as well as Russians. Captain Cox brings down a his fifth victory so quickly that he does not have time to identify its markings. His wingman, Lt. Harold R. Gates, barely avoids colliding with that aircraft but clearly sees its white crosses.
In the midst of this confusing dogfight, as aircraft spin down and explode on impact, the Soviet flak, up to now quiet, throws a wall of fire up to 5,000 ft. Red flight dives on two unidentified aircraft climbing at 10 o'clock. Lt. Robert J. Guggemon (Red 3) identifies one of them as a FW-19O while his leader fires a long burst at the other one. Noticing a ventral radiator beneath his opponent, Red Lead realizes that it is a Yak-9.
Just then, Lt. Robert E. McCormak (Red 4) fires a short burst at another aircraft and hits it just as his adversary reverses his turn. McCormak identifies it as a "round-wing Me-109" in gray blue camouflage. Meanwhile, Lt. Bryce H. Thomson (Yellow 3) attacks an aircraft which he believes to be German, but soon realizes his error. Looking aft, he sees another one about to fire at him. Breaking left sharply, Thomson ends up on the tail of a Yak-9 after a 360-degree turn and places himself on its side while wagging his wings to show his national markings and making hand signals.  After hesitating, the Russian responds in kind. With confusion everywhere and little chance of finding the Germans, Cox orders his pilots to break and get back in formation.
In the meantime, Lt. Robert S. Gaines' flight is in difficulty after being separated from the group over Berlin. While flying at 10,000 feet toward Joachimsthal, Gaines sees three or four unidentified aircraft flying below towards the east. Followed by his flight, Gaines makes a 180-degree turn to the left, losing altitude. While making a pass at the leader, Gaines sees the tail-end Charlie breaking away, notes that it is finished in a bluish scheme and devoid of markings; nevertheless, he formally identifies it as an Me-109. He fires at the aircraft which catches fire and falls toward Joachimsthal Lake. Meanwhile, F/0 Harley E. Berndt (Yellow 4) starts to fire at the second "enemy" aircraft while 600 ft. away and quickly moves in.  After seeing his bullets chew up the wing root and cockpit of the "enemy" aircraft which dives away, Berndt rejoins his leader. Time is 1130.
All over the area, formations are running into each other. Northeast of Berlin, some 65 miles from the German capital, a flight from the 353rd Fighter Group is attacked from the rear by two La-5s. Seeking to be identified as friendly, the US fighters wag their wings, but to no avail. The Russians come back for a second pass. The P-51s fire a few warning shots while the Russian fighters fire at a straggling B-17.  
At 1315, Lt. Tiede, a flight leader in Group A, spots three aircraft above and at 6 o'clock. Crump and Atkins climb toward them and, identifying them as Russians, try to contact them on radio channels A and C. At that very moment, a fourth fighter speeds toward Kyle and fires a short burst at him. The Russian then joins in formation with the other three and, together, they fly away after making a wide turn. The four P-51s then rejoin the stricken B-17 which they escort until 1320 when they are forced by fuel considerations to abandon.
On the Monday following these encounters, Marshal S. A. Kudiakov, chief of staff of the Soviet Air Forces, sent a strong note of protest to Gen. Hill at the US military Mission (USMILMIS) in Moscow. Notably, Marshal Kudiakov stated: 'While near Kustrin, Soviet Yak fighters approached the formation, saw they were Americans, and withdrew. While withdrawing, they came upon German  fighter planes which were about to attack the American formation and so the Soviets attacked the Focke Wulfs. Soon the American Mustangs joined in the battle and shot down 4 Yak planes.
In a report dated 19 March, Col. Alfred R. Maxwell, chief of operations, noted minor incidents: "Two P-51s followed two Yak-9s to Zackerick airdrome north of Kustrin and shot down one of the four Fw-190s which were strafing the airdrome. Russian aircraft were circling the airdrome at the time, and when one crashed, the Soviets threw up intense accurate light flak - the P-51s then withdrew".
    During the melee over the airdrome, one Yak fired on American aircraft without effect. Pilots report Russian aircraft painted blue exactly like identified German planes and that although haze and patchy clouds complicated recognition, recognition signals were ineffective.
In his reply dated 20 March, Gen N. D. Antonov, chief of staff of the Soviet Army, reported the destruction of six Soviet aircraft by US fighters and stated: "When the group of American planes reached Morin (35 kilometers northwest of Kustrin), at the time over the Morin region there were 6 Soviet (Yak-3) fighters.  The Soviet fliers, having noticed the German fighters which were chasing the Americans, attacked the Germans, but they themselves, in turn, were attacked by American fighters".
On 2 April, Gen.  N. D. Antonov raises his tone: "Your letter of 28 March 1945 did not satisfy me ... In the air at the time and in this region were a total of 8 Soviet fighters and not 34 planes as indicated. Not a single Soviet attack was made on American planes. Soviet flyers recognized American bombers immediately and Soviet fighters attacked no American planes but only German planes. In your letter it is claimed that the Germans did not shoot down a single Russian plane. Consequently all 6 Soviet fighters were shot down by American planes. By observation of Soviet pilots and also by observation of ground troops it was accurately established that American planes flew 6 to 8 kilometers cast of Kustrin. Conclusions drawn from the investigation virtually prove criminal action of individuals of the American Air Force and do not indicate that such actions will not occur again in the future."
The next day, Gen. Arnold had the following message forwarded to Gen. Antonov in which he stated: "I am greatly distressed to learn that further investigation by Gen. Spaatz reveals that some of our US personnel were at fault in the March 18th incident. I deeply regret the death of Soviet flyers and the destruction of Soviet aircraft resulting from this incident. I am requesting General Spaatz to make exhaustive investigation of this incident and to take strict disciplinary action against individuals who are to blame".


 SOURCES-- Detailed mission reports by the 353rd, 357th and 359th FGs--Telex, Memorandum,and Letters from Gen. Spaatz to Colonel Alfred Maxwell, Gen. Anderson to USMTLMIS Moscow, Gen Arnold, War to US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mighty Eighth War Manual, Missing Air Crew Reports, The Army Air Forces in WWII"