Author Topic: What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40  (Read 965 times)

Offline fd ski

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2002, 10:51:05 AM »
we should get P400 !!!
:D

Offline Ossie

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2002, 10:55:35 AM »
Quote
I flew the P-40 in AW, and it wasn't much of a plane


I flew it quite regularly in AW, mostly FR, sometimes RR, and I remain convinced that its greatest advantage was its perceived image. It had very good overall performace, it was just masked behind horrendous handling at speeds below 150ias (not to mention a climb rate comparable to a Sopwith Camel). That initial impression was probably tough for a lot of people to get past when they first tried it out.
Keep the speed above 175-200ias though, and that plane was money. It could hold its own against the 'popular' set of late war planes, but it took patience (getting to combat could take forever), and most of my combat time was spent fighting from a disadvantage (usually in altitude).
It will be interesting to see how well it performs in AH. The one crutch that the AW P40 really had was the simplistic damage model; it could take pings all day long with the only adverse effect being a leaky fuel or oil tank. That obviously won't be the case in AH. "Torque 'n Stuff" will also play a big role. But if the overall performance numbers are anywhere close, then this plane will have the potential to be surprisingly competative in the MA.
Or it could end up sucking horribly, but at least it looks cool....

Offline Steven

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2002, 11:25:07 AM »
I personally do not see the P-40 as being our American Spitfire; rather, that accolade goes to our Mustang.  As for the P-40, I hold no pretense that it's going to be an arena-winner but why I'm happy to see it is because it is a part of World War II that I find most interesting, which is the early-war Pacific.  This should also start breathing new life into Scenarios and the Combat Theater, areas both of which I'm very interested in.  Variety and diversity is nice.

Offline Sabre

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2002, 11:45:28 AM »
Agreed; the P-40 is not America's Spitfire, but is more anologous to "America's Hurricane."  It did the yoeman work early in the war, before the new fighters became available in quantity.  Because it was tough, had good firepower, and easy handling characteristics, it soldiered on as a supporting player through the whole war...just like the Hurricane.  And just like the Hurricane does for the thoughtful in Britain, it holds a special place in Americans' hearts (not to mention quite a few other countries that were glad to get them).
Sabre
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Offline J_A_B

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2002, 11:54:28 AM »
"It was properly modelled there though" (in AirWarrior)

Actually, in later versions of AW (AW3 and on) the P-40 was quite badly under-modeled.  It was supposed to be a P-40E, yet had a top speed of only 317 MPH.  This ranges from 18 to 45 MPH too slow, depending on the source you choose to believe.  

This wasn't very moticable in-game though because almost every other plane in AW was messed up as bad.  

J_A_B

Offline Widewing

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Re: What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2002, 12:13:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I had the pleasure of meeting Colonel F Gabreski about two years ago at the WB 2000 con in North Carolina. I bought his autobiography, and he signed it for me. What a nice gentleman he was. He gave us an address which lasted about 30 minutes, in which he described his WW2 service in the P47.

He also talked about some other planes. Of the P40, he said "You know, that wasn't much of a plane", gently shaking his head.

If that were the case, then the P40 was certainly well modelled in WB. What a piece of crap. I flew one only because the rolling plane set (RPS) offered a very limited choice in the early war. It was P40 or Spit1a, replete with peashooters. (Couple that with iENs crappy connections, and you might as well stay in bed)

I wonder if the AH P40 will be any better. Probably, as most of the planes are better in AH than they were in WB. But I fail to be inspired by the current wave of excitement about the P40.


Ace George S. Welch had a different view. He referred to the P-40 as being "completely honest, durable and utterly dependable." Welch and Gabreski served together at Pearl Harbor. Welch got airborne and dispatched 4 Japanese aircraft, with two probables (flying a P-40B), now believed to have not made it back to their carriers. Welch never shot down less than two fighters in any engagement, and nailed 4 on two occations. He also never put in claims for enemy bombers he shot down, and squadron mates claim that he shot down at least 5. Ultimately, Welch finished the war with 16 kills (his total claims). He was knocked out of the war in 1943 with a life threatening case of Malaria. He later became a Test Pilot for North American Aviation, and tested various P-51s and P-82s. He eventually became their chief test pilot and made the first flights of the XP-86 and YF-100 (there was no XF-100), taking both beyond Mach 1 on their maiden flights. Recent evidence points to Welch beating Yeager through the sound barrier by two weeks. More than a few of his contemporaries are convinced that Welch would have scored better than Bong had he not become deathly ill, which led to a lengthy hospital stay. When had recovered the USAAF decided his value as a War Bonds promoter and combat instructor was too great to risk him in combat again. Welch resigned and with the assistance of General Hap Arnold, was hired by North American in 1944.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: May 03, 2002, 12:20:47 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Pongo

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2002, 01:03:04 PM »
looks like this thread is in danger of becoming about wotans skilllzzzz

Offline rogwar

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P-40
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2002, 01:51:29 PM »
I believe one major reason of the P-40s popularity is because of it's legacy with the AVG (Flying Tigers) in China.

It will also be very great for the TOD or CT for those types of scenarios. Will I fly one regularly in the MA? probably not. Am I glad to see it? hell yeah!

Regards,

rogwar

member The Original Flying Tigers squadron
« Last Edit: May 03, 2002, 04:40:01 PM by rogwar »

Offline Buzzbait

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2002, 02:02:50 PM »
S!

The P-40E certainly won`t be an uber plane.   Against late war models, it does`nt stand much of a chance.

Here are the Stats on P-40E:E Model:

1150 hp Allison V-1710-39 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid cooled engine.

Maximum speed was 335 mph at 5000 feet, 345 mph at 10,000 feet, and 362 mph at 15,000 feet.

Initial climb rate was 2100 feet per minute. (?  This may not be a figure for WEP climb) An altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 11.5 minutes. Service ceiling was 29,000 feet.

Maximum range was 650 miles (clean), 850 miles (with one 43 Imp gal drop tank), 1400 miles (with one 141.5 Imp gal drop tank).

Weights were 6350 pounds empty, 8280 pounds normal loaded, and 9200 pounds maximum.

Dimensions were wingspan 27 feet 4inches, length 31 feet 2 inches, height 10 feet 7 inches, and wing area 236 square feet.

That would give it a wingloading of 35.08 lbs per Square foot.

Ailerons were large for the wing area, and control input was good at all speeds.


The above suggests to me, that when matched up against its historical opponents, the P-40E could be flown successfully.

Against the A6m2 Zero, the P-40E has slight advantage in speed at all altitudes.  It has much better control at high speeds, especially in roll rate.  Dive acceleration should be superior, and initial zoom climb should also be superior.

It is inferior in climb and turn circle.

Firepower is roughly equal, but durability is much superior to the Zero.

Obviously the P-40E would be most successful when flown in teams and when using B&Z tactics following a climb to altitude.

Against the 109`s, the P-40 would have a more difficult time.

Both the 109F4, and 109G2, the historical opponents, are considerably faster.  They both have much better climbs than the P-40E.  Zoom climb also goes to the 109`s.   Dive acceleration should be similar.

Turn circle is to the advantage of the P-40E.   All the reports of combat between these aircraft suggest the P-40E had the better turning circle.

High speed controllability advantage goes to the P-40E.   All the 109`s were considerably inferior to the P-40`s in this area.

Firepower is slightly to the advantage of the P-40E with the weight and accuracy of 6 .50 cals being an advantage over a single 20mm and 2 7.92mm rifle calibre weapons.

Durability would be to the advantage of the P-40E.

Comments?

Offline Edbert

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2002, 02:03:34 PM »
Alright, the discussions of my beloved 'toothy' from the WB 1.xx days has brought me out of mothballs.

As far as the numbers go that plane had no advantage over its no-hostorical couterparts in the MA except PERHAPS its control during high speed dives. Yet i racked up 50+ kill streaks in it (when 'trying') and regurlary maintained a positive K/D ratio even while furballing spit5s (the 9s were dead meat). I'll be the first to admidt that it was overmodelled but it was a killer plane to fly. I could chase down Doras (after ICI added the weight) and D-Stangs in a dive while outturning 109s and outrolling 190s. I know I am not alone in those remebrances from yesteryear.

Now the P40B that came out in late WB2.xx was a different story...

Offline Buzzbait

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2002, 02:25:13 PM »
S!

More on the P-40E

James `Stocky` Edwards was a RCAF Ace with 20 1/2 kills, almost all in P-40`s.  (Kittyhawks)

Picture of Edwards:

http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/edwards2.jpg

Picture of RAF Kittyhawks:

http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/kittyhawkis.jpg

Here are some descriptions of his fights versus 109`s in a Kittyhawk:

>>>>>>>

On June 17, Jim Edwards made a definite impact on the capabilities of the Luftwaffe at this time by killing one of their top aces. F/L Wally Conrad of 274 Sqdn was returning from a "delousing" sweep of the Tobruk area when he spotted four 109s high above his flight of four Hurricanes. He called a break and headed up for the Germans. He discovered too late that the rest of his flight had not heard his call and that he was on his own. Too late to turn back, the Messerschmitts spotted him and headed his way. They were lead by the German experten Oberleutant Otto Schultz now with 50 confirmed kills. He had developed the reputation of being a dare-devil and a remorseless fighter who insisted on strafing his downed opponents. He earned the nickname "ein-zwei-drei-Otto" for his shooting abilities.

At this time Edwards was escorting Boston bombers southeast of Tobruk. Their entire formation was bounced by a large number of Messerschmitts and had been broken up. Their only defensive move was to turn quickly and often to make themselves more difficult targets. One of his attackers overshot him in a dive. He quickly lined up his sights and gave the German a long burst that caused an explosion in the engine. The 109 dropped to the desert floor. Edwards didn't see it, he had turned to the west and found himself alone and out of the fight. He dived for the deck at full throttle and turned towards his base.

Meanwhile, Otto Schultz attacked Wally Conrad wounding him and putting his engine out of commission. Wally crash landed and leapt out of his dead Hurricane when Schultz made his first strafing run, then soared back up to come around for another. At this time Edwards spotted Schultz coming up from his dive with his three squadron mates high above watching the fun. He was about half a mile away and angled his Kittyhawk slightly to intercept the Messerschmitt. Schultz came out of his second dive about 300 yds. in front of Edwards at a angle of 60 degrees. Eddie gave Schultz's 109 a long burst from his machine guns, hitting it solidly in the fuselage. The Messerschmitt thundered into the ground killing the German ace immediately. Edwards was gone as quickly as he had appeared on the scene, but not before Conrad got a look at the call letters of his Kittyhawk. Upon landing back at Gambut 2 Eddie didn't claim the kill of Schultz's Me-109 as he hadn't seen Conrad or his Hurricane and knew that two unsubstantiated claims from a new pilot would not be accepted. He claimed only "one probable Me-109 at low level", and so got the Squadron's revenge for the loss of many pilots. The loss of Otto Schultz was a severe blow to JG-27, he could not easily be replaced with another pilot so experienced.

>>>>>>>

Picture of Otto Schultz:

http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/ottoschultz.jpg

Another account which talks about the superior turn of the P-40:

>>>>>>>

Intelligence reported a large number of 109s at a nearby field, with a little speed and luck they could catch them on the ground. The WingCo, Hanbury, lead them into a low level attack formation. At eight miles from the enemy airfield they started to gain altitude when they flew right over a Panzer group. Quickly the ever-present Flak guns opened up at them, albeit inaccurately. They did however notify the airfield. Eddie and the others could see they were in for a rough time as Me-109s could be seen rising quickly off of the airfield.  


The WingCo attacked a 109 just getting off the ground, Eddie was lining up his section for a ground attack when he spotted 109s coming at them from in-front and behind. He ordered a tight rising turn in order to fight off the attacking 109s, as they couldn't turn with the Kittyhawks. There were so many 109s in the air that they kept spoiling each others attacks. Eddie got one in his sights and knocked a few pieces off before it pulled away. He kept pulling around until he was on the tail of a 109 shooting at his wingman. But now, in typical Kittyhawk fashion, his guns packed up. Fortunately the German pilot didn't know that. He panicked and pulled out of his turn so violently that he lost control and thundered into the ground at full throttle. As so often happened in dogfights the sky was suddenly empty. Eddie dived to ground level and got out of the area. He couldn't raise anyone on the RT so he headed in a general direction back to base, twisting and turning to throw off any pursuing 109s. He was just getting comfortable with his escape when he spotted a 109 about 600 yds. behind him. The enemy closed the gap to 350 yds. when he began firing at long range. Eddie could see dust flying up behind and to the left of his plane. Some bullets ricocheted into the underside of his wing. He had to start a turning duel, except that he had no guns. He turned inside the 109 and avoided his shots. He would straighten out and fly east while the 109 pilot re-arranged his aircraft for another attack. Eddie waited until the 109 was in range before he turned hard again, went around and straightened out. Eventually the German began firing at long range and started to hit the Kittyhawk. Eddie pulled around and got onto the tail of the German but his guns were still useless, and now the German knew it. But they were getting far east, and the German had to be low on ammo and fuel. Eddie rolled out and got right down on the deck, the German made a last, half-hearted attack and pulled off to fly home. Eddie barely made it to the edge of the LG when his engine cut out and he dropped down rolling to a stop, out of fuel. The tally for each side in the battle was two apiece. Eddie was awarded another victory, although won at a lot of effort.

>>>>>>>>>>>
« Last Edit: May 04, 2002, 03:09:41 PM by Buzzbait »

Offline Wotan

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2002, 02:30:27 PM »
try again bungo I am simply saying the p40 will be a pos not how good or bad I am.

Anyone can shoot me down

Offline funkedup

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2002, 02:37:31 PM »
Widewing - FYI Gabby got his P-40 up on Dec. 7th too.  But by the time he was up all the Japanese were gone.  The only combat he saw was AAA gunners shooting at one of the guys in his flight.

Offline Gorf

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2002, 02:54:14 PM »
The P40 will be no uber plane.. but then what due you classify as a uber plane?  

I think it should be uber pilot.  I know that someone in AH who has the patience, the skill, and love for the plane that will make it a uber plane.  I rember a 2 man squad from WB that took the P40B and was one of the best teams.  They were taking out "uber planes" left and right do to that they knew the strong and weak points of both the plane they flew and the pilots they went against.  I wish I rember their names, it has been so long since I flew WB.  I think one was BBGun.

Anyway,  The P40 will be as UBER as its Pilot.

I am glad to see the P40 and I believe the excitement is ..well related to the AVG.  At least that is one of the big reasons.

(S) HTC

Offline Otto

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What Colonel Gabreski said about the P40
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2002, 04:00:03 PM »
I thought the WarBirds P-40's were excellent.  One of my favorite rides......  The 'B' was actually better than the 'E' but both were very stable and good gun platforms.
   I hope the AH version is nothing more or less.....