B17 durability under enemy fire

[Packy]

I'm still a newb to this flight sim/AH thingummy but i have been having tons 'o' fun flying as a gunner in B17s.  

I read some passages and i have seen pics praising the durability of the B17 to withstand enemy fire and keep flying.  

However, I noticed that in AH one pass from an enemy fighter often downs the B17 i'm riding in.  Is this normal? or am i just unlucky to have been in B17s that received critical hits?  Shouldn't the B17 be tougher to shoot down?  any enlightenment would be appreciated!  thanks

[-=Silo=-]

Basically, in real life, the hit % on a B17 was a lot lower than what we have in this, or any flight sim.

We put  >50% of our ammo on a B17 here. That was not close to the case in real life. I forget the actual war gunnery %, but it was low, like 1% or so.

[superpug1]

well you're not unlucky. Even the great superpug and his loyal servant b-17 has been getting clobbered. It's just that everyone knows the soft spots. I think i'll go back to my hurricane. but in battle the average BF 109 didn't have enough ammo to down a B-17.

[fdiron]

The B17 was a very resiliant plane for being designed in 1935.  I have pictures of B17s that have taken direct hits from Flak guns and have returned to base.  Takes a tough plane to survive that.  

As for a Bf109 not having enough ammo to down a B17- Its mainly due to the pilot missing the B17 rather than not having enough fire power.  It took an average of 15-30 20mm shells to down a B17.

[BenDover]

i've been playing b17 2 alot, and most b17s i've lost of due to engines being blown out (ie damaged so much they don't work), or the pilot AND co-pilot being turned into leaky pieces of meat

the only time one of my bombers was lost to structural failure was oce due to flak(think the right outer fuel tank blew up caursing the wing surface to go missing) and falling wreakage from LW planes

[M.C.202]

fdiron said:
As for a Bf109 not having enough ammo to down a B17- Its mainly due to the pilot missing the B17 rather than not having enough fire power. It took an average of 15-30 20mm shells to down a B17.

Not quite, what the German study showed was that of B-17's SHOT DOWN, the average of hits needed to do so was 15 to 30. This study did not include B-17's that were damaged but returned to base.
There were quite a few B-17's that took that level of damage and more that returned to base.
Then again there were some that took one hit and went down.

[M.C.202]

fdiron said:
As for a Bf109 not having enough ammo to down a B17- Its mainly due to the pilot missing the B17 rather than not having enough fire power. It took an average of 15-30 20mm shells to down a B17.

Not quite, what the German study showed was that of B-17's shot down, the average number of hits was 15 to 30. This study did not include B-17's that were damaged but returned to base.
There were quite a few B-17's that took that level of damage and more that returned to base.
Then again there were some that took one hit and went down.

[fdiron]

Thats what I meant 202.  It took an average of 15-30 20mm shells *impacting the aircraft* to cause a B17 to crash.  Someone posted a statistic a few weeks ago that told how many 20mm shells that had to be fired to destroy a b17.  Just going from memory, I think it took 1000 20mm shells fired in combat in order for 20 of them to actually hit a plane.

[weazel]

B-17 Battle Damage

[Lizard3]

Not to mention that many of us have had the opportunity to practice our attacks repeatedly without the threat of impending doom. No sweat, no fear only tipped beer in the keyboard.

[Karnak]

The B-17 and Lancaster were both renown for taking a tremendous amount of punisment before going down.  Obviously some took light damage and went down, but a surprising number returned with heavy damage.

I read one RAF Bomber Command statisitic where they had found that men flying in Halifaxes were (IIRC) 30-40% more likely to get out of a stricken bomber than men flying in Lancasters. However, the Halifax had a loss rate that was 50% greater than the Lancaster's loss rate even though the same missions were being flown.

In AH, 12 .50 cal hits can completely sever a Lancaster's wing from the fuselage.

I have not tested the B-17G.

[GRUNHERZ]

In AH, 12 .50 cal hits can completely sever a Lancaster's wing from the fuselage.

Well everone knows the AH BS Laser ".50 Cals" are overmodeled!

[Innominate]

I saw somewhere(dont remember where, so I could be completly and utterly wrong) that the reason the guns on the b-17's proved to be inadequate was that the german 20mm and 30mm cannons could simply out-range the b-17's .50 machineguns.  Is this true?  Do cannon rounds simply time-out so soon that they can't out range the .50s?

[HoHun]

Hi MC202,

>Not quite, what the German study showed was that of B-17's SHOT DOWN, the average of hits needed to do so was 15 to 30. This study did not include B-17's that were damaged but returned to base.

Actually, the German research included anaylsis of the gun camera films and took damaged bomber into account as well as destroyed ones. The conclusion was that 18 hits were necessary to achieve a bomber kill with 50% probability, while 25 hits would yield a 95% probability of kill. (Note it's not linear.)

This is not aircraft-type specific, so expect it to be an average over B-17s and B-24s both. It was common wisdom among Luftwaffe pilots, though, that the B-17 was a lot tougher than the B-24, so the B-17 could be expected to take a few more hits than indicated for the kill.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[RatPenat]

Buff's guns has long range (very long range). If my f4U can rip a wing from lanc with only 12 impacts (ejem ejem ejem are you sure? maybe he's in his convergence distance and a lot more 12 impacts), a gunner can shoot me down with 1 or 2 good impacts (that's overmodeled) from his tail, ball, upper, etc... before i had a solution of fire (between 2k and 600yds i don't fire because you didnt do nothing with dispersion of .50). IN REAL LIFE a b17 could be shoot down by LW planes before they shoot buff's guns because 20 mm and 30 mm has better range that buff's guns.