Ackstarring...again.

[akak]

Originally posted by poopster
Good points all but...

I'm dead serious here..

Where ARE the fluffers ????

nopoop

Fluffers can be found in the sheep pens grooming the sheep.


Ack-Ack

[poopster]

Thanks thrila, the IMPORTANT question is answered..

Let me know when they're back in the arena



nopoop

[Dago]

During WW2, USAAC used to use B-17's as gunships to help protect the bomber formations. So the idea of guys hopping in a B-17 in AH and just

I believe this was only experimented with, and not put in practice on any kind of noticable scale.

But, this is not what "ackstarring" refers to anyway, but I understand your point.  Be assured, no bomber crew ever took off in the face of a large enemy fighter assualt just so they could shoot their guns at the fighters.

That practice is limited to these flight/combat sims by a few desperate few without any sense of game play or honor.


Dago

[Aub]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread

Could use a little bit more hate though...

Aub

[akak]

Originally posted by Dago


I believe this was only experimented with, and not put in practice on any kind of noticable scale.

But, this is not what "ackstarring" refers to anyway, but I understand your point.  Be assured, no bomber crew ever took off in the face of a large enemy fighter assualt just so they could shoot their guns at the fighters.

That practice is limited to these flight/combat sims by a few desperate few without any sense of game play or honor.


Dago

You're right, it's wasn't standard practice and usually only done by some of the bomber groups on occasion.

I've seen 'ackstarring' in all the online sim's I've played and I never felt it diminished the game or my enjoyment.  There have been a few times during squad nights in AW where we'd load up in a Deathstar to CAP our base that was under heavy attack.  It was fun and tell you the truth never heard anyone whine about it.  The same in Warbirds.  There were a few squad nights with the MOLs were one of us would up in a bomber and turn on the auto-gunners to protect our base, -MF- used to do it a lot.  

If hiding the fleet is considered a legitimate tactic by a lot of you guys, then using a B-17 or any other bomber to DEFCAP a base is just as legitimate.  Just because it wasn't done in real life doesn't mean it shouldn't be done in the game.  This isn't a WW2 simulation but a simulation using WW2 planes, so real world stuff need not apply at times.



Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

[BOOT]

Originally posted by akak
During WW2, USAAC used to use B-17's as gunships to help protect the bomber formations.  So the idea of guys hopping in a B-17 in AH and just flying around looking for fighters isn't that far from reality.


Ack-Ack

The plane you are referring to was a modified B-17e...
It was designated the YB-40 (Y being Experimental)
Only a few of these were made,  The modifications made were Twin 50's in both left and right waist gunner positions... An extra dorsal turret also twin 50's and a remote control chin turret, again all gun positions were twin 50's...  It carried no bombs but enough ammo to shoot down the entire Luftwaffe...  The last major modification was a lot of additional armor.

The YB-40 was developed early in the war and was flown by the Eighth Airforce, 92nd Bomb Group (H) and was only flown exclusively by the 327th Bomb Squadron.

The purpose of the YB-40 was to serve as ecort for the entire mission... To the target and back, which was impossible for the fighters at that time...  The YB-40 was very effective in shooting down fighters... But in reality what really brought  the experiment about, was a desperate attempt to raise morale among the Bomber Crews. At this time of the war, 60% loss rates were acceptable...

The YB-40 was great to have along on the way into the target, however on the return trip after the Bombers had dropped thier bombs they were much lighter than the heavily armored YB-40 and in turn able to fly at much higher speed.
The entire group had to throttle back in order to prevent the YB-40 from becoming a straggler... In most cases the Bomb Group raced home as fast as they could, leaving the hapless YB-40 crews to help escort damaged stragglers...  They only flew a few missions before the experiment was cancelled.  They did however keep the idea of the chin turret and included it in the B-17g model.

Now that would have been an "Ackstar" any way that it was flown.

BOOT

[Wotan]

in my 9 sorties (none above 18k) i killed more with greater accurracy then you. It took no skill what so ever. Fluffing takes no skill at all. unless you take the time to figure fuel rates time to ip and strive to fly in a box.

Buffs arent made to engage fighters. In rl they are flown to get to target and home. I fly umm that way the very few times when I do. I only fly umm when I making dinner, napping or washing clothes.

You are selling some bs if you think cruising at 28 k in lanc takes "skill". If you like it thats onething but skill it is not.

no doudt its rediculous. Folks wonder why fluffers get no respect.

revvin none of this is an unfair generalization. its spot on. Go read the previous fluff whiners threads, started by fluffers in an attempt to win sympathy for their skilless task.

If you want an idea of fluffing flown with a great level of skill ask ripsnort if he has a film of his TOD b17 sortie where the whole box fought off numerous 262 attacks all by very experienced pilots. IMHO that was some of the best formation flying I've seen.

Anyway fluffers I imagin you all in fluffs right now on your 28k climbout surfing the web and cruising the board.

[muckmaw]

Your greater accuracy simply means you were flying Milk-runs, and every time you dropped a bomb, it hit it's target. The fact that you never engaged an enemy a/c tells me this.

The reason my acuracy is lower is because 90% of my missions are flown at 10k in a B-26, into hot fields. I've been shot down many more times on these mission's and therefore, impacting my accuracy. Dropping bombs under fire, or simply unloading your ordinance in order to gain speed out of a hot sector on the return trip are both common occurances for me.

I personally find high alt. bomb runs boring. I don't care to sit through a 28k climbout. And as Rip said earlier, I'd much rather fly lower and fight my way into a target.

If I were to sit here and tell you I'm a better fighter pilot than you, I'd be wrong and out of my mind. You doing the same about buffs is simply childish and ignorant.

Bait on about Bomber pilots having no skill. In my mind you're completely wrong.

[Wotan]

hardly milkrunning, but whatever that doesnt change the fact that fluffing takes no skill. btw 3 or those sorties are field captures

surely going on auto climb fer 30-45 min to 28k  isnt a skill is it?

fly how and what you want but dont tell me you are a "skilled" buffer because there are very few of those. if et is still around watch him fly his b26. Talk about a tough nut to crack.


edit
Didnt you a few posts up just say you flew a 300 mile 28k buff sortie?????

[lazs2]

fluffing is skilless and everyone knows it.   It is a fact that everyone else in the game hates seeing a fluff.   They ruin the game for the rest of us.   It is a selfish, attention starved thing to fly fluffs.  When you are flying them, know that everyone wishes you were not in the game.

but.... if you can't do anything else I suppose HTC could use your money.
lazs

[muckmaw]

I was wondering when you were going to show up Lazs, knowing this is one of your favorite topics. I must have missed a memo. When were you elected to speak for the entire AH community? Was the election a landslide? Remind me to congratulate you next time I see you. Finally, every pilot in AH can now stop posting on this board because Lazs speaks for us all. What else can you tell us, oh great oracle? Can you give me a few investment ideas for the next 2 quarters?

Meanwhile, Wotan, I did fly a 300 mile, 28k Lanc sortie in a mission with my squad. It was the first one I've flown at such great distance, and quite frankly, was quite boring until the bogs showed up. It was done for strategic purposes to give us a chance at taking xome bases back by taking down the Bish radar. Frankly it was quite boring until the bogs showed up. This is one of very few long distance, high alt. mission's I've flown. Take a look at my stats you'll see most of my Buff missions are flown in a B-26. Obviously, you cannot tell my altitude, but the number of kills in the B-26 should tell you that I fight my way in and out on 90% of my sorties.

I have no need to convince you, or Lazs or anyone else of my skill level. Flying bombers is what I enjoy, and I do it well. Does it require skill? Yes. Would you agree with that? No.

So continuing to debate this is simply a waste of time for both of us.

[Wotan]

i was not telling you how high you flew or where you flew. That was you telling me. Do ya need the quotes?

I was just using the example you gave in this post. I would hope you didnt fly every fluff sortie at 28k. I would hate for you to get bored

[muckmaw]

No, I understand that. I was merely drawing from my last sortie as an example of an exciting mission, that was in my opinion, worth the time and energy. Hell, when we were climbing out in formation, the squad was joking around about how we were going to go out for a burger while we climbed out. Granted, outside of staying in formation, and countering wind effects to stay on course, little or no skill required here.

The real fun started when we encountered the bogs. Like I said, RadX (maybe it was RedX) gave me one hell of a fight, which he eventually won. His predecessor was not so lucky. The mission was 75% boredom, 25% thrilling. And it was done with an objective to help the country.  Otherwise, you'll never see me in a Lanc, much less at 28k.

The point I've been trying to get across is simply that not all the buff pilots fly the same way. Give me a close air support mission on a hot base capture anyday. That's my what I prefer above all else, and that's what I fly 90% of the time. And I still contend that this requires a certain amount of skill to survive.

[LePaul]

Muck, you are fighting the good fight, the problem boils down to repsect.  You have sinned to fly buffs, and God forbid, fly them in a fashion that yields a successful sortie.  Lazs and Wotan can whine endlessly that anyone flying a buff, whether at 5k or 28k, is a "no skill pilot".  What granted them the high rank of deciding who is skilled and who is not, eludes us all.

With the introduction of the Me262, buffs have to be smarter about getting into the hot areas.  Granted, not all are (i.e. the low level, almost suicide runs where the buff is essentially fighting their way in) but I know on my runs, Im debating payload vs speed (Lanc vs Ar234), chance of landing at a suitable field, fuel load (more a factor in a 234 than Lanc) and best alt.  And, if we're talking about the Ar234, what targets are we trying to tackle, or do we decide enroute?  Many times I've headed to a field to take down a VH yet when I arrived on site, M3s/Goons were enroute and it was requested I finish off the city instead, etc etc.

But, according to the arm chair know-it-alls, that's all no skill, eh?

But this is from the same group who despise base taking, so goons are bad people too, eh?  

Seems to me most of the folks who fly the buffs and goons are undervalued.   to those that drive the slow stuff  

[muckmaw]

Maybe it just boils down to different types of skill. Perhaps the buff missions require more organizational, and tactical thinking, while the Fighter pilots use more reflexive, split second decsion making.

I simply don't understand why Fighter Pilots find it necessary to constantly berate the Bomber pilots.

I can only imagine what the fighter jocks have to say about Tankers and other GV's.