Neo Nazis and the Holocaust

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by babek-
I consider it equally pervert that black people were transported over decades in well organized shipments from Africa to the slave plantages of America  with all the pain and losses during the transports and the slavery for the rest of their life as I consider the barbarism of Nation Socialist Germany.

I am troubled that you find no difference between mass murder and mass enslavement.  Granted that both are dreadful, it seems to me there's quite a significant difference.

- oldman

[babek-]

@angus
I can agree with all points of your last mail - except one:

The crimes of the Nazis done to the homosexuals, jews and other people they defined as subhumans have been done before - it was clearly nothing new.

Its not my intention to reduce their crimes by this statement but I am not willing to ignore all the equal crimes of nations and races done in history before and after the National Socialist Reich.

@oldman
The slavery and torture of the black people was only one of so many possible examples.
But to value this special historic crime, I consider the slavery of the black equal to the crimes the National Socialists have done to the homosexuals/jews/others.

An ethnical group was considered without any logical reason as subhumans.
They lost all their human rights and were considered as property.
There was also a well organised transport to their target areas where they had to end their lifes.
There have been horrendreous conditions during these transports and many died under barbaric circumstances.
They had to enter a machinery where they were selected, where famalies were teared apart - even children were taken away or sold to different owners.

Maybe the difference to National Socialist Germany was that they could live longer, but what "life" has a slave?

No - this was truely an equal barbaric and ugly crime like the Nazi-killing anc recycling machinery of the death.



Maybe its within our genes, that we consider other ethnicals as less worth.
Just ask yourself, how some people in Europe react when they get a message that 1000 philippines have been killed during a catastrophy and how if 100 europeans died.

Even in this forum there were passages of pals or ragheads and so on.

As long as we treat and value people  in different ways because of their ethnical heritage things like happened during National Socialist Germany could be happen again.
Everywhere...

[midnight Target]

Yea but............

Yea they were wrong but..................

Yea they suck but....................

Yea that was horrible but.................

Yea but what about............

    Everybody's got a big but, lets talk about your big but.    


Step one in minimizing the Holocaust.

[babek-]

Maybe I am not minimizing the killing of homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans by the National Socialists but just putting it in a greater frame of historical crimes, which I all equally condemn.

And maybe you by ignoring or minimizing the other events are maximizing a single historical event which happened often in its type before and after WW2.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by babek-
Maybe I am not minimizing the killing of homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans by the National Socialists but just putting it in a greater frame of historical crimes, which I all equally condemn.

And maybe you by ignoring or minimizing the other events are maximizing a single historical event which happened often in its type before and after WW2.

If ignoring the other atrocities you mention maximizes the Holocaust then so be it. I choose to ignore them in the context of this thread.

OTOH I think you need to take a close look at your indoctrination level babek. For example - You have consistantly mentioned the jews second or third in your list of groups targeted by the Nazi's. Is this significant in explaining your feelings? Do you feel it necessary to minimize the Holocaust whenever it is mentioned? Why have you never called it "the Holocaust" in this thread? You don't need to answer these questions, just look in a mirror and read them to yourself.

[babek-]

LOL - quite a little bit paranoic reaction you have.

But nevertheless you deserve some answers.

1st - When I use the phrase "homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans" I sort them in alphabetic order - as it is routine in my work.

You accused me that by mentioning the jews in 2nd place of this row would be a discrimination of this specific target group of the National socialists.

Strange view you have.

I made it clear in my mails of this thread that I condemn the crimes done to the homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans.
In the same way I condemn the other crimes done during the ancient and recent history.

2nd - You wrote "If ignoring the other atrocities you mention maximizes the Holocaust then so be it. I choose to ignore them in the context of this thread."

If I am right the starter of this thread was thinking about people who deny historical facts.

Now just read your own statement and you will find yourself in the group of people who deny historical facts.

In this point I am more than happy that we have a different point of view.
I try NEVER to ignore the numerous crimes done by humans against humans throughout their long history.

Concentrate yourself in the small fragment of crime of human history - I will try to see the much bigger picture and to find an answer for myself  why human behavior is not changing and repeating again and again.

[GRUNHERZ]

Don't forget the holocaust of Native Americans by Columbus!!!!  

[GRUNHERZ]

Oh yea this "Slavery of the Black" is total roadkill!

The more accurate should be "Slavery of the weaker African Tribes by stronger ones", nobody in Africa was ever sent to slavery because they were Black.

And the WW2 Holocaust thing is certainly unique and unprecedented if not entirely in concept but in scale and execution.  

But since that we have had things nearly as bad, In Rwanda IIRC over 1,000,000 people were killed using machetes and knives in a genocide lasting only a few months.

[Angus]

And don't forget the Gypsies,,,,,
Anyway, and in whatever order those groups are put in this thread, the jewish were the biggest.
But again, what seperates them from the others is that they were "picked" to the slaughter partly because of their wealth. A diabolically clever move as I think I have mentioned before, picking a wealthy and somewhat unpopular group, paint them as enemies, roast them and pump their money into the eco system.

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by SageFIN
Montezuma, what you said applies to Aztecs too. As Ripsnort pointed out, they systematically slaughtered thousands and again thousands in a perfect "killing factory" style. The fact that they had the extra motivation in the form of religious beliefs is no better an excuse than calling the people to be purged inferior and subsequently stuffing them in an oven.

Of course genocide is nothing new in human history whether by swords, guns, starvation, diseased blankets, whatever.

Read what I said about the Holocaust - modern industrial death factories.

That is Nazi Germany's unique legacy in history.  That is what separates them from all of the other genocidal barbarians before and after, whatever other common attributes they may have shared.

[Pongo]

I never saw it befor..but he has a point..the Germans never really did much more than sack villages on a large scale.
Glad I understand that now..this was just the Germans turn to be nasty like the assirians.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by babek-
LOL - quite a little bit paranoic reaction you have.
 ...snip...

2nd - You wrote "If ignoring the other atrocities you mention maximizes the Holocaust then so be it. I choose to ignore them in the context of this thread."

If I am right the starter of this thread was thinking about people who deny historical facts.

Now just read your own statement and you will find yourself in the group of people who deny historical facts.

In this point I am more than happy that we have a different point of view.
I try NEVER to ignore the numerous crimes done by humans against humans throughout their long history.

Concentrate yourself in the small fragment of crime of human history - I will try to see the much bigger picture and to find an answer for myself  why human behavior is not changing and repeating again and again.

Alphabetical order? Fine. But wouldn't the word "Holocaust" be much easier to type than "the crimes done to the homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans"?

Even paranoid people can be right sometimes babek.

I said "In the context of this thread". The subject of this thread was people revising history to either try to prove the Holocaust didn't exist, or to minimize it. You are trying to minimize it by diverting attention away to other horrific crimes in history.

"Small Fragment" kind of says it all.

[Romeoman]

Originally posted by babek-


I agree with many parts of your mail, but the above part is dangerous.

Would it be acceptable if in the year 4000 people say "They were children of their time, and who are we to assume we know enough about the society they were living in to condemn them?" when they speak about the crimes of the National Socialists against the homosexuals, jews and other minorities they butchered?

Well, in 4000 they may be entitled to say so. That is if they lose so much knowledge of oue time as to not be able to understand much about our time. Remember that unlike previous eras known to us, we have produced huge quantities of material, which (if preserved) might enable those who come after us to develop quite accurate understanding of our way of thinking.

At the very least, it should be clear to any serious history researcher from 6000 AD that the Holocaust was widely regarded as atrocious beyond any reason by those living at the time of the event or immediately afterwards.

Don't get me wrong! Not passing judgement is not the same thing as condoning a certain act. When I say that 4000 years from now they may not be condemning the Nazis very hard, I don't mean they will be of the opinion the Holocaust was something good. They will probably (I certainly hope so )regard it as horriffic with their moral standards, but regard us as "backward" enough as to not think likewise.

Originally posted by babek-

The problem is that often people want to value these crimes.
But they are ALL pervert.

I consider it equally pervert that black people were transported over decades in well organized shipments from Africa to the slave plantages of America  with all the pain and losses during the transports and the slavery for the rest of their life as I consider the barbarism of Nation Socialist Germany.

The problem with the above quote is that you are contradicting yourself. If you say these acts are "pervert" you are valuing them. While I think that passing judgement on the Holocaust is acceptable, as it happened in a time frame we can relate to, I also believe that the judgement is totally irrelevant for events that happened more than a couple of centuries ago.

The slave example is perfect to illustrate this. Slaveship is repugnant to you and me as citizens of the world in 2000 AD. It was however an accepted and normal phenomenon for thousands of years, when few if any questioned it as such or the need for it. It was certainly not considered "wrong" by the african tribes enslaved themselves, as they just happened to be the losers of some regional conflict. Had they won the war, they would probably gleefully sold off the defeated.

Gotta run now, to be continued!